Is there a casual and callous attitude towards pregnancy and childbirth in society?

[PeaceAndHope]

Hello everyone:)

I'm sorry if I have posted my question in the wrong section but since I am a newbie I hope you'll all overlook it.

I have spent a lot of time recently wondering about the varied attitudes to childbirth and pregnancy and the lack of proper information regarding the process amongst most people.

I do believe that with the advancement of technology and better care we have been able to make the process a lot safer than it was in say the 1700s when the maternal mortality rate was 35%. However, it is my observation that people tend to take the whole thing for granted and assume all will be well because "women have been doing this for millenia".

I have keenly researched this subject and I have noticed that whenever I point out the risks associated with pregnancy and birth the reactions are those of disbelief and annoyance. I once brought up the possibility of fecal incontinence post childbirth and was admonished (by a man) to stop 'scaring people'.

I recently read a comment on a men's website that said "Pregnancy is the safest thing ever. It's not dangerous-to say that it is dangerous is misleading".
I certainly agree that the mortality rates in the developed world are rather low, but death is not the only thing that makes a process risky.

Pregnancy comes with superficial risks like permanent body changes to more serious ones such as permanent incontinence, diabetes, hypertension, uterine prolapse, obstetric fistulas (although these are rare), and even a permanent colostomy. Even in the developed world women still die of haemorrhage and aneurysms while giving birth.

Why is it that bringing this up tends to anger most people? Why do most people deny that these complications exist despite clear cut medical evidence that they do?

Is it traditionalism by virtue of which women are "meant" to bear children and therefore how can the process not be safe? Or is it just a paternalistic refusal to acknowledge that women do put themselves at risk for a series of complications (irrespective of whether they occur) when they have children?

I am not trying to imply that pregnancy and childbirth are horrible, evil things but I do believe that the attitude towards them is a bit casual and ignorant.

Your thoughts please?

You wear your Weirdo Badge beautifully :)

Look, I know I could tear from here to Darkest Peru. I know this because I've educated myself on it, but god, the last thing I need to think about in labour is the worst case scenario!

I also happen to think that the highly medicalised, birth is a dangerous process, regime actually perpetuates bad injuries through over zealous interventions.

"So, my wish is that we do the opposite to scaremongering and support women in the belief of what their bodies can do. Provide choice in childbirth, yes, and the understanding of the trauma factor when things go wrong, but please not this litany of potential complications."

I just wanted to draw attention as well to another post upthread that highlighted the incidences of PND and PTSD resulting from women who go into labour blissfully unaware, and then struggle with the dichotomy between what they thought would happen and actually what did end up happening.

There'a a very big difference between educating about potential outcomes and complications and scaremongering, IMO.

Well my problem was I went into labour 'blissfully unaware' of how childbirth was unnecessarily viewed as a medical emergency and therefore was traumatized and injured through unnecessary interventions. If I had been aware of how a natural process can be supported I may have had a far better outcome.

And to add to that PND developed as a result. I had no idea birth could proceed with dignity and minimal interventions and tried to rationalize, unsuccessfully, what happened to me as a result of believing all of the potential complications were actualy likely.

The thing about having a baby like a lot of things in life is that people's perception of it and the reality to create a dichotomy - this would have been easier in 'ye olden days' when we had closer links with families and communities. Now most of us spend a lot of time dissatisfied with the reality of life full stop, we expect relationships to be better than they are that we can have everything we want materially from day one (and get in lots of debt and the like) and we wonder why we cannot just carry on our lives like before we had children. This is because these ideas are sold to us. I think a lot of the problems with getting bf established is that it takes time, you just need to be sat down and taught to do it and take as long as it takes but we all expect that it has to fit in with our lives. In the past we would have had support networks around us to support us whilst we found out feet. We have so much information nowadays I am not sure it is always a good thing - if you are the sort of person that seeks it out then all well and good but what if you are not and you need someone to mediate that information for you? what then? all the information and none of the wisdom to interpret it in its context. We are living in times when we have more information that ever available to us and honestly without kind and honest interpretation of the 'facts' it is tantamount to scaremongering

"Im not sure as i even want to go through childbirth now after learning about it but i cant believe its just never talked about or mentioned at all"

So perhaps there's a rationale for telling people about the risks associated with birth in eye-watering detail - lower the birth rate. Maybe we should take the same approach to putting people off marriage, driving, eating and parenting in general.

How life enhancing that is.

Oh, and it is talked about by the mothers I know in real life. And on parenting forums - at length. And is mentioned in some antenatal classes and in many books about childbirth. There's no 'conspiracy of silence' on this issue. Honestly.

Shagmundfreud:

I fail to see why you brought up the cost factor here. How much effort is it going to take for the NHS to hand out some pamphlets to every pregnant woman actually stating the real and unbiased risks of every intervention? And maybe some web adresses they might find useful? If I had a nickel for every brainless, stupid pamphlet they've handed me about influenza and whatnot I'd be BillGates.

Not every woman will make the effort to look up all this on her own. Most just go by the experiences of their mother or sister and assume that everything will work out. They need to know that forceps and ventouse are risky. They need to know that home births and elective cesarians are also options. How else will they make a truly informed choice?

There is most certainly a conspiracy of silence. Had I not researched it myself I never would have known about the real risks of an operative birth. When I first heard about fourth degree tears I thought "Ah well, they probably fix it"
I found out much later that fourth degree tears are hard to repair, often require more than one surgery and are associated with a high risk of incontinence.

I have children, but I was interested in this subject long before that. I think this is what I'm referring to- unless you have children you aren't really expected to know or care about childbirth and pregnancy. Maybe if more younger girls were enlightened on the subject we would have less first time mothers being taken advantage of.

I'm getting a bit tired with this 'agenda' you keep accusing me of having. What agenda do I have exactly?

"Look, I know I could tear from here to Darkest Peru. I know this because I've educated myself on it, but god, the last thing I need to think about in labour is the worst case scenario!"

I don't think anybody is saying we need to talk about it while in labour. But perhaps a bit more education on the subject prior to the d-day won't hurt?

I also want to say that the fact that seats are often vacated for pregnant women is hardly indicative of the real attitude towards pregnancy as a condition. You could vacate your seat for a pregnant lady and still not think much of the risks associated with birth.

You know what I find sad? The attitude of women towards other women.

Carrying a child and giving birth is the most selfless, courageous thing a human being can do. Instead of acknowledging our own bravery and sacrifices we constantly downplay the experience and judge other women for their choices. It's disappointing.

We call the process 'easy', we refer to life and body altering changes as 'minor' and thereby insult our own efforts and tolerance.

The reason that men have a lack of respect for the process is because we as women have no respect for it ourselves.

Well, OP, this thread has certainly proved your point! - "I have noticed that whenever I point out the risks associated with pregnancy and birth the reactions are those of disbelief and annoyance".

Some contradictory reactions from the same people too - veering from 'why discuss it, it will scare women' to 'women DO discuss it and it is taught'. Despite other posters' experience to the contrary.

I just checked the RCOG site, which said that 'up to nine in 100' women suffer a third or fourth degree tear - and that it is not possible to predict or prevent the tears.

Now, some people here might argue that as you can't control that, why tell women? But that's also true of many other aspects of birth - if you'd want to be informed of the possible but uncontrollable risks of surgery, then why not the possible but uncontrollable risks of VB?

As others have said, it might at least give women something to contextualise their own experience, whatever degree of tearing (or not) they experience. I don't see how the argument of keeping women ignorant in case they get scared is anything other than infantilising and disempowering. SardineQueen, I agree, and it is surely blindingly obvious, that women are more likely to seek help for pain, continence issues, loss of sexual function etc if they aren't under the miserable illusion that everyone else manages just fine, and they are the only woman to have such problems. You only have to look at threads on MN where women are so relieved to find other mothers with similar post birth injuries, and who are encouraged enough to go and see their GP to see that happening.

I think that being dismissive of perineal damage and incontinence issues is actually related to assumptions about a woman's role in society/life. The more confined and home bound she is, the less issues like minor incontinence matter. For a woman who expects to be pretty physically active or who expects to be away from home, and be in work situations for example where they can't dash to a toilet quickly, then it's obviously more of an issue.

I think women sometimes don't help when they accuse each other of 'vanity' issues over post birth genital trauma and pelvic floor issues. I recall a recent thread here where posters accused each other of genital vanity, downplaying minor incontinence and basically saying with a healthy psychological attitude and a loving husband, such things didn't matter.

Another poster responded with admirable restraint, saying all she wanted was to manage the school run without shitting herself. Indeed.

I think you're being way too literal here. The reason I might think about it in labour would be if it was talked about too often or too much emphasis put on it.

Anyway I've made my point here and we can agree to disagree.

Ah - cross post, peaceAndHope - yes, women's attitude towards other women re: birth depresses me too. Time and again you see here (and elsewhere, it's not just MN!) the attitude of 'oh, well, it didn't happen to ME, so it can't POSSIBLY be an issue for anyone else.' Extraordinary. And don't even get me started on that passive aggressive competitive birth nonsense...

Yes agreed Cervix, way too literal. I got what you were saying when you made that point - so did the OP of course but there we are. I am agreeing to disagree too - I just think the OP is plain wrong

Despite my random strangeness I have never dismissed perineal damage/continence issues etc not for a second, and no one on this thread has done that if my memory serves me correctly. I just feel that there are better ways to handle it. My suggestions that post natally these issues should be properly followed up is a good one I think, then the information and help is aimed at those who need it rather than blinding everyone with scare stories that very often and most often in fact do not materialise.

I think Cervix was onto something with the similarities between the posts from certain people.

Is your mum an ob in the us by chance?

Apparently this place is a bit of a loony bin. I have no idea who the teenage boy from Arkansas is , but why is it it freaky to talk about incontinence?

I think coming on to mumsnet was a mistake...

HeatherHills:

My mother is a professor of Geology. And my father is an alcoholic. Why do you ask?

Brandy:

I think your suggestion that post natal care should be a lot better is something I agree with. Physiotherapy is a good idea, and so is laser treatment.
But I think that we would be better off trying to avoid these issues from developing in the first place instead of getting to a point where we require extensive physiotherapy or surgery to correct the damage. Hence better care in labour, limited use of harmful interventions such as forceps and ventouse, offering cesarians to women who are carrying very large babies etc. are changes I would like to see.

CervixWithASmile:

I'm a bit unclear on what you are trying to say. Are you saying that women should not be told about the risks of childbirth? And that pregnancy is not risky in the first place?

Have to say, I completely agree with everything shagmund has said (and not for the first time). I think views on childbirth needs to start coming from a different perspective, and one that is not based on fear.

fruitybread:

Ah we agree on many accounts :)
I am being mistaken for someone who wants to scare women whereas I just wanted to start a discussion on the lack of appreciation and respect for what women go through.

BadDayAtTheOrifice:

Hi! The purpose of this thread was to discuss views on pregnancy and birth.
I encourage you to elaborate on what your views on the process and the women who go through it are.

I understand that you feel it isn't something to be feared. Noted.
But have you personally noticed a lack of appreciation for what we go through as women and mothers? Like we are expected to deal with it because it's what we were "meant to do"?

Peace, for gods sake, of course not. If you read my posts objectively I think that's clear.

I hope this won't be taken the wrong way but I am genuinely curious about something.
This is a question to all those who feel that pregnancy and childbirth are not to be feared.

Is it really possible to not even have the slightest bit of fear and apprehension in your mind about a process that-

1. Is painful no matter how you do it (yes cesarians are painful too)
2. Can cause a host of complications like pelvic floor disorders,incontinence, prolapse,PPH, diabetes, hypertension, paralysis etc.
3. Can change your appearance considerably and not always for the better
4. Can in very rare cases cause death

Surely a certain amount of fear and hesitancy is natural. I don't think over-medicalisation is the answer but I don't women should be made to feel guilty for feeling scared either.

Cervix:

I'm sorry for misunderstanding. If you feel women should be informed about childbirth and that the process is risky for some then we are on the same page. I got confused when you said that you disagreed with the OP completely when in effect we both seem to want the same thing- healthy, informed women who are respected for the brave journey they have embarked upon.

To some extent, yes, I do.
There is an element of 'well you've had children, so what did you expect, this is what happens'.
On the other hand, the biggest risk factors are mostly brought on by interventions that occur because of birth setting. Women still believe that hospitals are the safest places for them to give birth in and are oblivious to the fact they are very risky places to be in regarding injury to yourself. This is what we need to educate mothers on.