Why is there so much judgement directed at c sections?

[DanceLikeTheWind]

I honestly don't want to start another endless VB v/s CS debate. I am just eager to read any insight that people may have on this topic- Why are other women so judgemental towards women who opt for c sections, whether elective primary c sections or repeat c sections?

There are several reasons why I will opt for a c section: a prior (minor) uterine prolapse, anxiety issues, and a family history of erb's palsy and incontinence.
I have faced nothing but judgement, ridicule and even hatred from other women :(:(

I am well aware that this is a major surgery with a longer recovery. I'm well aware it shouldn't be done prior to 39 weeks (unless of course I go into spontaneous labour). I'm well aware of the increased risk of complications in future pregnancies, however I don't plan on more than two babies.
I'm also aware of the risk of staph infection.

However, by opting for a c section I'm reducing my chances of developing
incontinence and prolapse. I have a zero chance of suffering an obstetric fistula, a third or fourth degree tear and perineal trauma.
My baby will be at a reduced risk of cerebral palsy, erb's palsy, brachial plexus nerve injuries and trauma caused by a possible assisted birth.

I'm not hard-selling c sections here, just pointing out that there are some benefits to a c section as well.
Why then do people only focus on the negatives? And why are the varied risks of a VB ignored simply because it's 'natural'?

No you cannot opt for it necessarily, but I do think that being mentally traumatised by a previous birth should sometimes be a factor. I have had counselling, many discussions with medical professionals, and I still cannot in anyway face a VB again (based purely on my own experiences not anyones elses). That is not to say I will necessarily get one anyway, it is still being decided....

Dance, I think you have quoted some stats and risks associated with VB but while you have quoted some risks related to CS you have not quoted the stats and your list is far from complete. the glaringly obvious omission is the impact on successful breastfeeding.

To illustrate my point on how using selective statistics to back up an argument can be misleading, while there are short term differences in percentages of women experiencing post birth incontinence, long term incontinence in women in their 50's has been shown to have no bias towards method of delivery.

I also had some level of urinary incontinence after my EMCS and bowel problems too. There's nothing like someone rummaging around in your insides to cause short term and potential long term issues (adhesions for example).

Still, birth is such a personal and emotive subject. Focusing on others opinions will never be fruitful if you take it personally.

OP: well done for researching this sp thoroughly. I thought I had done prior to DS1, but had missed the 21pc/36pc incontinence in primiparas following VB. I knew the risk was there and higher than the VB propaganda would have you believe, but if I had known perhaps I would have made different choices and feel better now. As it happens, fortunately I was one of the lucky 64pc, but the physical and mental trauma I suffered with VB are such that I am still receiving care for them almost two years down the line. Am now pregnant with DC2 and all doctors I have seen understand and support my propensity for an ELCS.
But the VB movement is more propaganda than real information: compare all the fuss that is made about epidurals (which are v safe and with v low complication rates) with the silence on VB complications. I find that really maddening. It then leads to the sort of stupid comments about CS that you described. Ignore them and do what's best for you and your family!

I had an elcs. I have been told I missed out, I didn't really have a baby , I took the 'easy option', I didn't do things naturally (obviously the last point is true though)

I find it strange that it is apparently acceptable to say that to women who have had cs, but if I, as a breastfeeding mother, were to say to a formula feeding mother that she was 'missing out', 'not doings things naturally' or 'taking the easy option', I'd have my face smacked.

I don't think formula feeding is easy or that anybody misses out, by the way, I just don't understand why you can be judged for not giving birth naturally but not be judged for not feeding your baby naturally.

Just to clarify, I think women should not be judged on how they give birth OR on how they feed their babies.

Gah. I hate the ff/bf thing!

I don't judge people who have c-sections, despite having 2 VBs.
I do think an ELCS is something not to be entered into lightly as it is major abdominal surgery. However I think it is a bit of a myth to suggest that women do have ELCS for trivial reasons, and bearing in mind that some reasons may seem to trivial to others but are definitely not to the woman in question.
But I do think the OP needs to research a bit more carefully about VB before ruling it out completely as VBs are generally considered safer and have a faster recovery time than a CS. The problem is you tend to hear a lot more about the problematic births and less so about the ones that are straightforward with minimal interventions/problems.

Great i'm really looking forward to my VB next week now . Do you really give a flying fuck what others think about how you give birth? I'm having a home birth and have loads of negative comments about that but i am very confident in my choice that it is right for me so i take negative comments with a pinch of salt, i suggest you do the same instead of coming on and frightening other women about their choices. Nice to be able to choose a section if you ask me, my choice was a hospital vb or a home vb having done it twice before in hospital and had a awful time then i chose the home vb in the hope it will be better.

I'm sure i could find plenty of info about the risks of surgical complications or the fact that your baby doesn't clear it's lungs properly during section but as lots of women don't have a choice about how they give birth it would be rather cruel.

Oh and perhaps a tmi if your due to have a vb in the title would have been helpful, speaking as somebody who is having massive anxiety at the moment about the imminent birth of my baby.

Dance I understand why you would feel this was an easier choice for you, I was terrified about giving birth both times, first was an induced birth with epidural, second was spontaneous vb with nothing, would choose second birth in an instant (this is only my experience).
You seem very focussed on the incontinence is there a reason for this, do you know people who suffer incontinence? I agree you should maybe seek some birth counselling even with your obstetric consultant to discuss these issues, they may be able to talk you through them.
My nephew wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for a section so am grateful for them but it is my opinion that they should be used in emergencies or medically recommended if previous problems have occurred.

Good luck youtalkin, I hope it goes well for you x

Thank you, i'm hoping being pre stretched will make it all easier

OP, I completely agree with you. My SIL has short uncomplicated labours and is horrified I fought for a cs for my second because I'll "get a scar". I've posted tons of times on here about my traumatic delivery and recovery and the ongoing effects on my mental health. She has no clue what that is like because she comes from a perspective of natural birth being safe and controlled for her.

There are health pros and cons for each type of delivery and I agree that the -ves of vb are underplayed given how common things like tearing and incontinence are. Before my VB I asked my NCT teacher how likely stitches were for a first delivery, she couldn't tell me. I also had to ask how to look after myself in the event of such vaginal/perineal damage and was given a 30 sec response. We spent an ENTIRE DAY covering pain relief in labour despite this being far shorter than the time stitches take to heal - or in my case a great big gaping episiotomy due to wound break down (and during labour there are others on hand to assist with that pain, unlike shaking with fear as I tried to minimise the pain as I pissed/pooed on my own). Issues with continence (urine or faecal) were never mentioned prior to my delivery by anyone, even when signing the form for Keillands forceps, so faecal incontinence was a rather unpleasant surprise in the 2 months post-delivery, and I was quite lucky on that front.

On the other hand the exact statistical risk of DVT, bowel rupture, infection, chronic ongoing pain and death have been explained very clearly prior to my cs. Both consultants also made plain that a cs is, statistically, safer for my baby although she is at higher risk of initial respiratory difficulty.

Explaining the risks and complications, accurately, of a VB should not be deemed scare-mongering. I wish I'd have had a more realistic idea of VB and recovery from it before I had my first.

i have this OP

had 2 elcs due to psychological fear of childbirth

and 2 of my "friends" (who both had vbs) are always winding me up about it, saying, oooh misty is too posh to push and took the easy way out - grrrr

Any person - woman or man - who judges you for having a ecs or elcs is rude, ignorant and judgemental.

Why would you care what this sort of person thinks???!!

I have had 2 vb's, my dsis has had 2 cs's. That does not make me "better" than her!

I am genuinely shocked that people think this about cs's.

"easy way"??? Hardly!!!!

My dsis had an emcs and an elcs and the first one nearly killed her and my nephew

Just another way of making mothers feel inferior....its a sad fact that some people can only justify their life choices by treating others badly

If I'd had a CS and a "friend" was so insensitive to remark negatively on it, I'd calmly explain the reasoning, and if they were still negative, they'd be dropped like a hot stone. Life is too short to deal with twats.

Well, I'm in no position to judge on either VB or CS as I'm currently pregnant with my first so have no experience on which to base a judgement. Reading the debat is very intersting though.

I'm sure there is judgement from people as there is judgement in life about every choice, but I think it is easier to accept other opinions if you are at ease with your own choices / situation. I would think that if you feel the situation has been forced on you (for example EMCS or ELCS due to medical / mental health requirements), being at ease with it may be harder and so I can understand how other opinions may be harder to deal with in these circumstances.

The only thing that leaps out at me, OP, is that you seem to be unsure about your choice and trying to justify it - regardless of whether you feel able to admit this to yourself or not. Perhaps this is due to personal doubts or due to the reaction you have had from others, but I don't think anyone but you can resolve this issue for yourself. Of course, this is just my personal opinion and interpretation of the posts and I'm sure will not be how everyone reads it.

I had an emcs for DS1 and he was in a bad way after the trauma of his birth (and so was I) so went for an elcs with DS2.

Lady at playgroup, 'Too posh to push are we?'
Me, 'Yes.'
Pinteresque silence.
Lady - exeunt.

Birth is always a complete unknown. No one knows what will happen. OP, whether you elect for CS or vb is up to you, as long as you realize that both bring an equal amount of risks. I personally wouldn't judge anyone for choosing a CS unless their only reason was "too posh to push". I think anxiety, family history, etc are all very valid reasons to have an elcs.

I had am emergency CS for my first child, to my utter relief as I had known for weeks that he was large with a very large head and I just "knew" that I'd never be able to get him out. I was convinced he, or I, or both of us, would die if I had to have a VB, and that even the very best outcome would be massive damage to my undercarriage. I expect that fear contributed greatly to the "failure to progress" that meant I needed a section, that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, but at the same time a head that was still too high to get a blood sample from after 12 hours syntocinon and 24 hours contractions, does still rather support my argument that I'd never have got him out.

That EMCS meant I could have elective CSs for my 2 subsequent children without too much insistence. I did get sneered at by one Doctor for not wanting a VBAC for my second, which still rankles, but other mums have never made me feel bad about it.

My main reason for wanting C-sections was because I have always thought it was safer for the baby. (My Second DC did have breathing difficulties for a couple of days after birth due to being CS, so I know it's not always straightforward.) When attending hospital appointments for developmental issues with DS1, I think it's telling that we were always asked about the birth - "What sort of birth was it? Oh EMCS? Why? Baby distressed? Badly?" It seems obvious to me that birth complications can have a lasting effect on the baby.

OP, you are being a little disingenuous - you had a previous thread about your ELCS plans and everyone (well, at least as far as I read, although perhaps it kicked off later) was very supportive and constructive. So it's just not the case that you have faced nothing but judgement, ridicule and hatred from other women.

Those 21% and 36% figures you quoted are for the immediate post-birth period, aren't they? So your original statement of "about 35% of women develop serious incontinence after a VB" was inaccurate (the 36% figures was for instrumental deliveries, and there isn't a "serious" qualifier) and also not the figure for ongoing problems. After all, 100% of women experience heavy bleeding in the immediate post-partum period, but it seldom lasts longer than a few weeks.

I had an emcs with #1 and a VBAC with #2, currently expecting #3. There are some/ plenty of people who do judge a woman for having a CS and this is especially the case of of women who were fortunate enough to have had uncomplicated vbs. I have very easy pregnancies with no morning sickness, but am not so arrogant as to dismiss the experience of women who do, I breastfed both my children and it was easy , convenient and blissfully natural, but I know it's not the case for everyone. Labour is the bit that I struggle with and I do feel a bit pissed off that those who have a different experience can be so judgey.

I agree with the poster who said it is nonsense that c sections are the 'easy way out'. Recovery is so much longer for a simple everything goes to plan c section than it is for a simple vb.

After I had DD1 (traumatic vb due to medical negligence) my Mum was amazed at how quickly I recovered as she had had c sections. I am also terrified of hospitals and operations so a c section would be as scary for me as a vb would be for other women.

It is like all of these ishoos, some people will always be judgey about the choices made by others when there is very little point in doing so as all it does is cause bad feeling.

To the poster who said that I didn't mention the risk of not breastfeeding after a c section:
Personally, i'm not worried about it. I know several c section mummies and they have all managed to breastfeed. Some even managed skin to skin!
Also keep in mind that not every woman plans to breastfeed, in which case this drawback is moot.
I read some studies which state that it's actually analgesia that interferes with breastfeeding (if it does at all). However, with help from a good lactation consultant most of these problems can be resolved.