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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Why is there so much judgement directed at c sections?

488 replies

DanceLikeTheWind · 19/11/2011 05:21

I honestly don't want to start another endless VB v/s CS debate. I am just eager to read any insight that people may have on this topic- Why are other women so judgemental towards women who opt for c sections, whether elective primary c sections or repeat c sections?

There are several reasons why I will opt for a c section: a prior (minor) uterine prolapse, anxiety issues, and a family history of erb's palsy and incontinence.
I have faced nothing but judgement, ridicule and even hatred from other women :(:(

I am well aware that this is a major surgery with a longer recovery. I'm well aware it shouldn't be done prior to 39 weeks (unless of course I go into spontaneous labour). I'm well aware of the increased risk of complications in future pregnancies, however I don't plan on more than two babies.
I'm also aware of the risk of staph infection.

However, by opting for a c section I'm reducing my chances of developing
incontinence and prolapse. I have a zero chance of suffering an obstetric fistula, a third or fourth degree tear and perineal trauma.
My baby will be at a reduced risk of cerebral palsy, erb's palsy, brachial plexus nerve injuries and trauma caused by a possible assisted birth.

I'm not hard-selling c sections here, just pointing out that there are some benefits to a c section as well.
Why then do people only focus on the negatives? And why are the varied risks of a VB ignored simply because it's 'natural'?

OP posts:
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NICEyNice · 25/11/2011 01:29

entropygirl, the idea of leaving it open so a women will always have the final say, in the context of fear though is a really important on for true tocophobes.

There's a thread called Strangest Fear? Help? in this section where the OP talks about her fear. One of the key parts is about trust with the doctor and fearing that she will somehow be 'tricked' into believing she will have an ELCS only for the doctor to change their mind.

The woman having that 'final choice' is her safety net if you like. It makes her less likely to panic and have a termination, and more likely to build a trust with her medical team over time - which might even lead to her changing her mind. Its about confidence that she is in control and being listened to.

I think control is a word thats been used time and time on this thread... with regard to anxiety.

Given that NICE have set out the case that there is very little difference between the two methods in their opinion, its logical to try and include the 'safety net' in the guidelines... It might not be appropriate to all women, but it protects those for whom it carries the biggest mental risks. Its reassurance from the word go.

Kinda a difficult concept to try and explain to people though.

cherrysodalover · 25/11/2011 02:47

Sakura
In reference to that well known statistic you quote below-

"IN countries where the OB/Gyns are knife happy and like doing Caesarians, such as the US, the maternal death rate is sky high. Compare it to the maternal death rate in developed countries where vaginal birth is the norm and the outcomes are much better for women."

it is misleading.In the US sadly there are many who do not buy health insurance and receive no pre natal care and sadlythis affects the mortality rate of mothers in the US- my ob/gyn said the mortality rate from c sections is actually on a par with other countires that are developed when these cases are removed from the statistic.I know it is used to scare monger about the US system which personally i have found just amazing in terms of the level of care i received both pre and post natal.
I agree they are more likely to suggest c section earlier when birth becomes challenging, here than in the UK because of the litigation culture....and frankly who can blame them- it is their job and life on the line as well as the mother's and the child's potentially, if something goes wrong.......the mothers would be quick to blame the doc then for not doing a c section quickly enough.
I was given such a bleak view of maternal services in the US from the Uk midwives I encountered before moving here that i specifically asked to be allowed to labour naturally as long as possible.Finally after 3 hours of pushing the ob'gyn gently suggested he would recommend a c section but if I wanted to persevere for another hour they would support that too as long as the baby was not in distress.
I chose c section- it went smoothly- very big baby that could not have ever got out vaginally.......i felt like I had stayed in a spa for 4 days at the end of my stay, such was the kindness and attentiveness of the medical team.
I suspect I may not be telling the same story after an UK NHS birth- just from reading stories on here, as well as friend's upsetting tales of bad birth experiences.
What is wrong in the NHS that so many have such negative birth experiences?

scottishmummy · 25/11/2011 08:03

such pompous emotive language. knife happy
clearly can't retain an objective stance
us health morbidity is complicated,as there are varying degrees of health insurance and access to good care is not universal.so the knife happy anecdote is amusing but fundamentally tosh

MigGril · 25/11/2011 08:24

I've only read the first part of this thread, so forgive me if this has been covered.

From some one who's had one complicated VB birth, followed by a seconed more straight forward birth (but did have a few issues). I'd still have a VB again if I had any more baby's

OP your figgers on incontince at post 3months would have included me with my first but with physio that all healled and it didn't stop me having another VB either. So those figgers on paper may look scary but in reality probably a lot of women recover well at a latter date. Just carrying a baby cause problems with the pelvic flour for some women.

I looked into a CS with my seconed as I had a forcepts delivery with a 3ed dgree tear and she had shoulder distosher (got stuck comeing out at the shoulders which cuts off the blood supply to the baby). But the outcomes for a VB still looked like a better option and my consultant support this decision to.

I'm not trying to be a marter to VB just that I think you do have to have quit a few medical problems to really justife a CS and I think if you need one medicaly then it's great that you can have one. But I wouldn't want the risk to me or baby unless really needed.

MigGril · 25/11/2011 08:25

Oh and I don't have any ongoing incontince issues after having another baby. But don't think I want to risk carrying another.

NoWayNoHow · 25/11/2011 09:16

I think the rights of child issue is a bit of a red herring imo. Once baby is born, we trust mothers every day to make judgement calls and decisions on behalf of their child as they are too young to make their own, and we believe the parent will have their best interests at heart. Surely the same applies before birth?

NoWayNoHow · 25/11/2011 09:19

Btw aramantha I kinda get what you're saying but I've only had two sips of coffee so will re-read when fully compis mentis. Wink

Traceymac2 · 25/11/2011 09:37

I think as far as judgement calls are concerned re having c section or VB are concerned really that is down to the obstetrician, this person will have a better and more informed idea regarding what is safe and what is not and requires intervention, i.e., CS. I was very lucky that i had excellent care pre-natally due to complications in both of my pregnancies, basically i would have gone with whatever my consultant told me was the correct path to take. I certainly do not have the expertise in this field that he does. I think if I had a valid concern about having a VB, i.e., very bad experience in the past with VB or severe phobia then this should be taken onboard. My only issue with this subject are choosing to have a VB purely or social reasons although I think these women are few and far between and it doesn't sound like it would apply to any posters here.

scottishmummy · 25/11/2011 09:57

maternal mental health and well being relevant factor in considering cs/looking holistically it doesn't only need to be a physical contraindication or complication to warrant a cs

Traceymac2 · 25/11/2011 10:22

I agree there are many factors that could influence this decision. It's just not one that should be taken lightly but I don't think is unless perhaps you are a pt in the Portland clinic. I really don't believe an NHS hospital would have the resources to carry out a cs unless there was a good reason anyway, be it physical or psychological. It takes an entire team of people to perform such a procedure who would otherwise be caring for all of the other women in the maternity dept. I now live in Ireland so I don't know how representative this is of other hospitals but the first time i went into labour, already a pt on the ante-natal ward, it took 5 hrs for the dr to come to examine me because she was in theatre carry out a caesarian. I was immediately taken and induced as my contractions hadn't started as there were concerns about how the baby would cope. I was lucky that the only anaesthetist was available both times to give an epidural as he had just come from or was just going into a cs. Now I am not complaining about this, it could easily have been me in there. I am just saying resources in my hospital anyway are stretched to breaking point so I don't think that the dept could cope with any more pressure.

HugosGoatee · 25/11/2011 10:28

I think I would be classed by some posters on here as wanting a CS for 'social reasons' although I have no idea what is so social about them Hmm I need to stop reading actually and just remember the sensible and reasoned posts about it (which have been incredibly helpful to me) rather than the judgey ones.

SM and cherrysoda - Sakura has not come back to the thread after posting such nonsense, others disputed her points straight away. Best to ignore such deliberately inflammatory and ill-informed posts.

Traceymac2 · 25/11/2011 10:37

By social reasons I mean wanting the baby to be born on a particular day or to avoid labour for no other reason than just not wanting to have to go through it. I don't see what is so illogical about that. I work as a healthcare professional myself and I see how stretched resources are. It is also major surgery and should not be entered into lightly. It is a different opinion to yours that is all.

Traceymac2 · 25/11/2011 10:55

I just wanted to add HugosGoatee that I don't in any way think that your reasons for wanting a cs are 'social' reasons, they seem perfectly reasonable to me and if my baby was breech I would probably feel the way you do. I know a girl who had her baby turned manually and she was in agony during the process. I would also be afraid that it would cause some harm to the baby in some way. I am definately not anti cs. I am due another baby in may and who knows what will happen, it could be breech, I could end up with PE again and need a cs myself. I hope not because the thought terrifies me!

NICEyNice · 25/11/2011 10:56

FFS, even if you go private it doesn't mean a doctor suddenly has no ethical duty to tell you risks and that they won't. Given that most private obstretrians in the UK also work in the NHS, I think thats insulting to them on a professional level that they suddenly leave all ethics at the door entering a private establishment. It makes me SO ANGRY when people suggest that women are making the decision based on 'social' reasons. They aren't. Its a hell of a lot more complicated than that. The limited evidence there is suggests entirely the opposite - women will almost always have some sort of health reason motivating them as part of their reasoning - and often they have more than one reason for choosing an ELCS over a VB. The social reason thing - eg to fit in with schedule, or to avoid labour - is being hugely exaggerated if not completely made up by the press to sell newspapers. Below is some of the evidence found on the subject. Not sure how newspapers are coming up with the theory of 'too posh to push' based on this little lot...

The only thing we do know for sure is that reasons for maternal requests have been poorly studied, but the majority are for fear and concerns over physical health of mother/baby and that they are poorly recorded by the NHS.

Also that women want to discuss risks as part of their decision making process.

Wiklund 2007 - Caesarean section on maternal request Personality, fear of childbirth and signs of depression among first-time mothers
Known reasons for requesting CS and factors contributing to the request are; age above 35 years, a history of elective or emergency CS, a previous negative birth experience, a complicated pregnancy and fear of giving birth. A relationship has also been seen between socioeconomic factors such as unemployment, smoking and immigrant status. Low education and low income has also been connected with a high rate of request for CS. This group of women has also been shown to have more antenatal depressive symptoms. Nevertheless there is insufficient understanding as to why women may request a CS in the absence of obstetric indication. If these women have different life styles, expectations of pregnancy and birth and personality need to be explored.

RCOG News from 17th October
TOG release: Reasons why women request caesarean sections need to be explored more by clinicians

Clinicians need to explore the reasons behind why women request a caesarean section rather than counsel women about the risks says a new review published today (17 October) in The Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (TOG).
Caesarean section on maternal request (CSMR) is carried out in the absence of maternal or fetal indications. One of the main psychological causes is tokophobia, an intense fear of childbirth affecting between six to ten percent of women.
In addition, women who have had previous vaginal delivery may request caesarean section because of adverse experiences during labour known as secondary tokophobia.
The authors of the review state that rather than counselling women requesting caesarean section about the risks, a better approach would be to explore the reasons for the request.
For women with tokophobia, frequent, regular psychotherapy by trained personnel to address why they are requesting a caesarean section is recommended by the review.

In 2003 The Select Committee on Health Fourth Report stated:
86. According to the Centre for Family Research at the University of Cambridge, the RCOG and many others who provided written evidence for our inquiry, pregnant women want more information on the risks and benefits of caesarean section and wish to be involved in the decision-making process. A survey carried out between 1999 and 2002 by the Centre for Family Research at the University found that that maternal requests for caesareans were made mainly because of fears about the health of mother or baby. In their most extreme form, these fears constituted a phobia of giving birth (tokophobia), and a small number of seriously traumatised women may need surgery in order to avoid severe psychological problems."

British Journal of Midwifery, Vol. 19, Iss. 11, 02 Nov 2011, pp 708 - 716
Caesarean section at maternal request remains a contentious issue, fuelled by reports of associated morbidity. To explore the motivations behind women's expression of preference for a planned caesarean birth, an internet survey was conducted using semi-structured questionnaires available via a UK-based international website, www.electivecesarean.com, over a 9-month period. A convenience sample of 359 pregnant women who stated that their preferred delivery method was 'elective caesarean section through my own choice' was included. Data were analyzed descriptively and thematically. Women from 16 countries were included. Two main themes were identified: 1) anti-vaginal birth; and 2) physical and psychological validation. Women who were anti-vaginal birth had a fear of morbidity (maternal and neonatal) and of the birth experience. They viewed vaginal birth as unpredictable and saw planned caesarean birth as a safer alternative. Some women justified their decision of birth mode by referring to either a physical or psychological issue that related to a previous birth or an existing medical complication. Respondents had similar views regardless of country of residence. We concluded that women have multiple reasons for wanting a caesarean birth. These reasons are usually considered, and motivated by a genuine desire to avoid the potential problems of vaginal birth. Individualized birth consultations should include discussion of the risks and benefits of vaginal and caesarean birth as they relate to individual women.

Yes, obviously lots of women 'copying' Victoria Beckham (shall we ignore the fact that her first two were apparently breech? Or does that spoilt everyone's fun?).

WidowWadman · 25/11/2011 11:13

NICEyNice

"Yes, obviously lots of women 'copying' Victoria Beckham (shall we ignore the fact that her first two were apparently breech? Or does that spoilt everyone's fun?)."

But breech isn't a reason for CS - you can birth them at home in water, even footlings. There's videos on youtube, dontchaknow? Wink

It actually angers me a little bit when other people try to belittle my or anyone else's choices or worse take them away from me or anyone else

I'm currently in a discussion at another place where my opponent tells me that she feels so sorry for me but she wishes I wouldn't use public forums to work through my trauma of having had a CS by saying out loud that I really didn't find it traumatic or regrettable. And do I want to see her birth video so I can see what a proper birth is like.

All just because I told a frightened primip with a breech who's scheduled for a CS today that it really doesn't have to be a bad experience.Confused

NICEyNice · 25/11/2011 11:18

Last time I looked at the NICE guidelines, it said this about breech:

Women who have an uncomplicated singleton breech pregnancy at 36 weeks gestation should be offered external cephalic version. Exceptions include women in labour and women with a uterine scar or abnormality, fetal compromise, ruptured membranes, vaginal bleeding or medical conditions.
Pregnant women with a singleton breech presentation at term, for whom external cephalic version is contraindicated or has been unsuccessful, should be offered CS because it reduces perinatal mortality and neonatal morbidity.

This Mrs Beckham has plenty of ammunition in there... WidowWadman ;)

WidowWadman · 25/11/2011 11:24

Yeah, but her selfishness means that midwives get less and less practice of delivering breeches vaginally, and that's not fair on those who want to go down that route. Or something.

NICEyNice · 25/11/2011 11:35

Haha. That woman you are arguing with sound joyous.

Don't introduce me.

HugosGoatee · 25/11/2011 11:41

Haha.. and the view of a midwife I met socially who told me all the midwives on the ward would be 'really impressed' if I birthed my breech baby vaginally. Ok then - I'll do it! What a great reason, to impress everyone with my superior womanity! Or something.

Traceymac2 · 25/11/2011 11:54

As I said in my first post you just need to make the decision with your team based on what is right for you and your baby. I don't know anyone who has had a cs for any reason other than that it was necessary at the time or due to her history it was necessary or safer. I don't know anything about Victoria Beckhams obstetric history. The press does hugely influence peoples attitudes regarding this subject and does give the impression that this is becoming more common for the reasons I said above, if this is the case I think that is wrong. I did also state I think these women are very few and far between and not any of the women on here. Really I don't think anyone should worry about someone elses opinion regarding this or any other aspect of parenting. It can be hard enough at times without feeling you need to defend every decision or action you take or feeling guilty because of it.

TallulahBelly14 · 25/11/2011 12:35

Why do we (women) do this to ourselves? Why all the guilt and judging and overthinking? I sometimes think that if men had to give birth none of this would be discussed. There would just be a 'nice one mate' and they'd move on.

Just do your research, choose the best option for you, and ignore everyone who has a view on how your baby is extricated from your womb!!

NICEyNice · 25/11/2011 12:49

Traceymac2 this is my biggest frustration. You said you are a health care professional, and yet even your concerns are about 'social' cs. Where the hell is that idea coming from, if there is no evidence yet to suggest that anyone is really doing it.

Its very hard to ignore stuff like that, when people are constantly reading a myth as it does impact on how other people react and interact to you. I wish it didn't, but it does. It does knock you confidence and your faith in yourself.

If I can get one message across on this this, I want it to be that. Not whether CS or VBs are 'better' or whether women should have 'choice'. Its a better understanding of WHY women are making decisions to have a CS in the first place so everyone can actually respond and deal with the issues to do with that.

The 'too posh to push' thing really is getting in the way of the real issues here, and its time we blew it out of the water once and for all.

Traceymac2 · 25/11/2011 13:09

Obviously from the press. There are higher rates of cs in private hospitals, this is a fact. The Portland clinic has double the national average, it was actually investigated by the national care standards commission because it's figures stood at 48%, that is very high. The clinic gave various reasons, medical, older mothers, history of complications but did say that they also had a high rate of women asking for them. I am not judging anyone here, everyone has had a reason for their cs, I don't think any of them have just decided this was an easier option and I certainly wouldn't demonise anyone for having one, as I said parenting is hard enough.

NICEyNice · 25/11/2011 13:22

Traceymac2 WHY do you think that the Portland Clinic has double the national average?

It is the ONLY exclusively private maternity hospital in the UK. It has the most 'hotel' like facilities (which are reflected in its price). It is disportionately catering for a certain type of woman. Not just affluent, but perhaps desperate, afraid and wanting to avoid judgment... as they haven't felt they can go elsewhere.

Given the difficulty that women have found to get an ELCS on the NHS due to hospital policy and a lack of recognition of tocophobia (both primary and secondary), where do you think these women are going? Until the NICE guidelines were updated this week, there has been a mistaken view by a lot of women, that you can't get an ELCS on the NHS for psychological reasons or that its incredibly difficult to get due to Trusts 'banning' ELCS.

Also, I would ask you to consider where these ladies who are going to the Portland live. I would hazard a guess that many are from outside London. The fact there is no private maternity hospitals outside London, means they end up concentrated in one place.

Like I say, this is about asking questions, not about jumping to conclusions.

Personally, in an ideal world, I'd be jumping at the chance to use the Portland if I lived within reasonable distance and could afford it. Why? Because it offers men the opportunity to stay overnight after birth and it offers a less 'hospital' like environment. Things that are important to me to allay some of my fears and that I can't get on the NHS.

NICEyNice · 25/11/2011 13:30

Have a quick look at threads about fear, distressed women refused ELCS and private hospitals on MN.

It makes for interesting reading...