Why is there so much judgement directed at c sections?

[DanceLikeTheWind]

I honestly don't want to start another endless VB v/s CS debate. I am just eager to read any insight that people may have on this topic- Why are other women so judgemental towards women who opt for c sections, whether elective primary c sections or repeat c sections?

There are several reasons why I will opt for a c section: a prior (minor) uterine prolapse, anxiety issues, and a family history of erb's palsy and incontinence.
I have faced nothing but judgement, ridicule and even hatred from other women :(:(

I am well aware that this is a major surgery with a longer recovery. I'm well aware it shouldn't be done prior to 39 weeks (unless of course I go into spontaneous labour). I'm well aware of the increased risk of complications in future pregnancies, however I don't plan on more than two babies.
I'm also aware of the risk of staph infection.

However, by opting for a c section I'm reducing my chances of developing
incontinence and prolapse. I have a zero chance of suffering an obstetric fistula, a third or fourth degree tear and perineal trauma.
My baby will be at a reduced risk of cerebral palsy, erb's palsy, brachial plexus nerve injuries and trauma caused by a possible assisted birth.

I'm not hard-selling c sections here, just pointing out that there are some benefits to a c section as well.
Why then do people only focus on the negatives? And why are the varied risks of a VB ignored simply because it's 'natural'?

I've had four sections. My first was an emergency for failure to progress.

I was advised (read: told) to never even attempt a VB because my pelvis was far too small and any attempt at vbac would certainly end in another emcs.

I accepted this without question; they were the experts afterall.

Years (and a further three sections on) I found out this is always a very dubious diagnosis, only ever seen in countries where rickets is an issue and in women who've suffered crushing pelvic injury. It's basically used when the answer is "tbh we don't know why your labour stopped/didn't happen".

I had been 6-7 cms dilated and hadn't even realised it, I was refusing pain relief because in 100% honesty I wasn't in enough pain to require any, I thought that despite my waters being gone it hadn't begun properly yet. They eventually examined me and I was amazed I was so far into labour (I'm not calling myself superwoman, it just genuinely wasn't hurting very much). Then I got sent to the delivery suite, a very short staffed delivery suite and was strapped to a fetal monitor and unable to move for hours (they didn't even let me pee for myself and insisted on catheterising me) the lack of movement because they didn't have a MW to sit in with me and monitor the baby (I saw one three times in ten hours for a very brief examination) so therefore kept me hooked up to fetal monitors, is what I now believe to be the reason a previously well progressing labour stopped.

During my second pg my midwife begged me to try a vbac, with hindsight I now realise she knew my diagnosis of CPD was utter bullshit and didn't want to condemn me to c-section without the option for a future vbac which essentially is what your second section does.

I have been called a man by militant vbac'ers at ICAN. So yes, there IS a minority of judgemental bitches out there. BTW OP it's an absolute fact that there is a far higher risk of complications to you AND the baby with a section. Sorry but there is no getting around that fact. Would I choose one? Nope. When you're hooked up to catheters and IV drips while women who gave birth after you did by VB are up and about, ready to go home, it kinda hits home then how much more your body went through.

Yeah my ELCS was 38 weeks (that was when they did it then) - as I say, no problems for us and an apgar of 9 too. But I have read that about the 39 weeks.
Thanks for the link looks helpful.

I'm not sure that I have a strong opinion. I have had 3 vbs which were all more or less fine, but now that they are suggesting women should be allowed choose to have a C-section on the NHS I'm not sure what I would do/would have done. Our conversations were all about whether or not to have an epidural, will future antenatal groups all be discussing whether or not to have a C-section?

My contribution to the topic is a link to a brilliant account of a C-section done in Uganda before Europeans had worked out how to do it (1879)

pregnancyandchildbirtharoundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/11/9-grass-hut-caesareans.html

Would people feel differently about C-sections if you didn't think of them as a modern Western medical solution?

spotty even if the aftercare WAS shoddy, it would make no change form the aftercare I had after VB (had to stay in hospital for 2 days due to surgery and blood loss). Midwives gave me grief about not breastfeeding straight away when I hadn't slept or eaten in 44 hours, and when DS was asleep reovering from trauma of birth. Was examined ONCE in the whole time I was in post natal ward.

I think what I'm trying to get across is avoiding that utter lack of control which can be paralysing - at least with a scheduled operation you kind of know what you're info. With a VB, anything can happen.

I probably would have lost my baby had I listened to half the women on this thread gassing on about " joyous natural births". I'm glad i listened to the professionals. Part of me mourns for the loss of the birth I thought i wanted/needed to have, but the other half of me is just angry about the comments on threads like this which stop women from making objective decisions about what is best for them.

This certainly is a very controversial and highly emotionally filled conversation. I completely agree about the judgement of other women and definetely midwives if you are opting towards a c/s.
My daughter is now 6months old and she is a little miracle.we tried for 5 years to conceive and had to go through the majority of possible interventions with experiencing a lot of complications including me pregnancy with a chromosomal abnormality which was not compatible with life. These complications were I'd like to point out- our unlucky draw and not at any point any misjudgement by any medical team. I've conceived naturally after all of that- at a time when I had decided further interventions were not for us. Our daughter decided to stay breech all along the pregnancy and never turned cephalic. We we offered a ecv (external cephalic version) but decided not to opt for this in view of the associated Fetal risks. We decided for an elective c/s instead in view of the involved risks, our history and also the fact that this pregnancy was a healthy one. We have faced nothing but negative judgement by midwives re this decision, being constantly asked if we had really been given all the info, then making sure to go through the benefits of a vaginal breech delivery which I would have never agreed to. Also, i was constantly doubted that this was really a breech presentation but the midwives refused to do a scan when i attended the day assessment unit. In the end, the date was booked ( which made both my husband and I uncomfortable since we would have really preferred a vaginal delivery had she been cephalic) and we went to the hospital. Everything went well, however the obstetric consultant who has developed the ecv service at this hospital went into great details of complications and risks (including stillbirth of a future pregnancy) of an elective c/s. all of this 30 min prior to the op. additionally she was extremely patronising towards me as a woman ( I don't think I have ever felt so judged by another woman), did not accept my points (or those of my husband) and her parting words were: well, with your emotions ( looking at me) and your intellect ( looking at my husband) I'm sure everything will be fine. I could not believe how rude this lady had just been but considering the fact that she would do my op 10min later, I decided to keep quiet. I am a colleage of hers (working in primary care) which she also brushed off with "what and that got to do with it"....

I know this is a very long story but has left with very negative feelings towards my medical colleagues (drs and midwives). I would have preferred a vaginal delivery for lots of reasons but also as this was a rather weird scenario taking the tube to the hospital to have your baby.

We now have a beautiful healthy and extremely funny little girl and I have never regretted our decision.

I think the issue we are all expressing to some degree is about quality of care .. some having had c sections expresing concenrs over after care, some having VB's quality of labour care and preparation - both need the same solutiton - higher levels of quality care for women .. none of which is provided by sayig women can choose a c section - the 'problem' is no being fixed at the source of teh problem, its being 'fixed ' in a reactionary way ...

Ohanotherone - maybe you should be offered counselling to help you cope with your fear of c-sections.

Do you not think you are being a bit insensitive with that. There is a MASSIVE difference between fear and a crippling phobia. Its like comparing 'down in the dumps' with severe depression, to quote fruitybread.

You are making fun of a mental health issue which is very real and very difficult for some women to deal with. Its pathetic to be honest.

This is the problem, people don't understand what a paralysing phobia can be like and think its just wimpishness. Try explaining that to someone who is having panic attacks and their anxiety raises their blood pressure. Anxiety can manifest itself in physical ways that are not good for giving birth.

Totalyl agree apple - until there's a decent number of empathetic, caring and professional midwives that enable every single woman to have the best birth experience possible, then it's all really null and void HOW you have your baby.

I would still have had the same complications in labour, but if the midwifery team had given a crap/listened/alerted a consultant to the problems, I would have been given an EMCS after 27hours labour (something they've freely admitted should've happened, but haven't apologised for their misjudgment). Unfortunately, because the night shift midwives were utterly uninterested, completely apathetic and downright rude, I was forced to labour on, with inductions and epidural, followed by assisted delivery, third degree tear and severe blood loss, never mind the damage done to DS.

I don't even remember my son being born because I was so exhausted and traumatised. I have a photo, but I don't remember it being taken. I don't really know how you're supposed to get over that.

Respect to MrsB24. Just for being one hell of a lady... in more ways than one.

NiceyNice - I think she was trying to be flippant about those who suggest that women with tokophobia should be offered councelling rather than ELCS, not trying to belittle phobias but quite the opposite

I hope so Widow. I've read an awful lot of crap comments elsewhere about this today from idiots. Too many people think its a made up thing to sneer at.

I don't have a lot of experience here. My first son was a vaginal birth and my second was an elective c-section. Both were healthy so in that respect both were good deliveries and I really have no reason to complain.

But the vaginal birth (induced at 43 weeks, epidural, forceps, third degree tear which took months to repair and 5 years later still not "quite right" probably due to a 9lb 9oz baby that hadn't engaged) was as un-natural as the elective c-section which I had requested, discussed with midwives and been granted by the clinician. And of the two, the second was more satisfying (the first one was minutes away from being an emergency c-section anyway). I know which I'd choose.

But for me, the birth isn't a big deal (but I accept that had I been injured by it I'm sure it would have been). It's 24-48 hours. The pregnancies weren't really a big deal (despite miscarriages) - they were only 2 x 9 months (maybe if I'd spent the time shopping for a hospital bag or pregnancy pillow I'd have remembered it more). I've moved on.

Time flies. I have a 5 year old and a 14 month old. Can't remember how much the second one weighed at birth - because it doesn't matter ! I've done birthing and I've moved on.

I welcome choice. Everyone has a different birth experience. Give us the facts (and by that I mean give us the peer-reviewed papers so we can judge if the statistics being quoted are representative of the birth environments we are being offered) and let us choose. I hope that everyone gets a choice - I appreciate that I was very lucky and my midwives supported my choice 100%, because it was exactly that, my choice, and not theirs.

Just spent ages reading everyones comments... I had an EMCS 20 months ago with my son after 21 hours of labour, his heartbeat kept dipping and was showing signs of stress.. I think if it hadn't have been for the c-section both of us may not be here today however I also had complications in the c-section... they gave me too much epidural to the point where I couldnt breathe or swallow, I also lost blood and went into shock for about an hour after so all in all not a great 1st experience.
At the time I vowed I would never have a c-section again... I am now pregnant again and have no idea what to do! Vbac sounds lovely if it goes to plan but the chances of having another nightmare and ending up with another EMCS or forceps etc scare me, so maybe should just elect for another c-section and hopefully it can only be better! At the end of the day its down to each individual to do as much research as possible and make an informed decision on their past experiences and personal circumstances. Thats what I intend to do. If anyone judges that decision then thats their problem.
I have experienced jokey comments from people who gave birth naturally saying I don't even know what its like giving birth and try giving birth naturally then etc etc but its just makes them sound ignorant... its not worth letting other peoples opinions get you down. Do whats right for you!

Have read whole thread with interest. Some really knowledgeable women and women with fascinating (if some awful) stories to tell. I hope the media pick up on this, the Mumsnet angle is always a popular one.

I have a breech baby now at 36 weeks, he's been like this throughout. I know I'll be pressured towards an ECV and I would much rather just go straight to booking a ELCS. My DH will support whatever I want to do but he's mr mega-logical and so wants to do what is statistically best for me and the baby - I am finding it so, so hard to find decent statistics with which to persuade him! I have suffered severe anxiety in the last (unrelated to birth) and am worried labour will give me panic attacks which would be my worst nightmare. I don't want to discuss my anxieties with anyone so feel the breech presentation is a blessing in disguise for me.

I am dealing with 2 stigmas - stigma of wanting a CS when I have other options, and the stigma of mental health issues. It's not always simple.

As far as I am concerned the only other person in the world who I would like to be allowed an opinion on the birth of any of their children, is DD.
Which of course is because she is my baby and I want her healthy and safe.
DD, is a very stubborn person. If, when she does decide to have children, she allows me any input I would faint with the shock, and tred very very carefully I would be over the moon.
My personal op, is my c-section was worse than the vag birth, the epidural failed, which was a painful experience; subsequentally any other pregnancy I would prefer a vbac.

I had an elcs this year and I cannot over-emphasise the wonderfulness of my experience. I do experience a 'not real childbirth' set of opinions regularly, never overtly stated but certainly very prevalent. But I had the most extraordinarily happy, beautiful, loving, exciting, experience with my husband beside me, no pain, a huge amount of explanation as to what was happening every step of the way, and immediate skin-to-skin which was so engrossing and incredible that I failed to notice the doctors were finished sewing me back up. I healed quickly and have the most magical memory of having my daughter, as does my husband. My parents were holding their grand-daughter 50 minutes after she was born.

Which is all to say, they are great if you want them and are at ease with them. I would never say to anyone that it's the best way, just that it was the best way for me, and people really shouldn't be made to feel ashamed or have their experience of motherhood lessened because they opt for an elcs.

But I am sooooo happy with mine. Science rocks.

Niceynice you have completely misunderstood me - probably my fault for how I expressed it. I get a bit annoyed that women with a fear of vaginal delivery are told to get counselling (to talk them into it) and then in the same breath the poster said she'd be far too scared to have a c-section - but no-one would suggest counselling to deal with that fear, would they?!
(I requested an ecs by the way)

I had a VB with DC1, and felt mentally scarred by the whole experience.

DC2 was by EMCS then DC3 nine months later by EMCS. Personally, I coped better having 2 c-sections in 9 months than the VB.

Its all about choice but if you choose to have a c/s then you need to be fully aware of the consequences of your choice such as reduced fertility, slower healing time, difficulty picking your baby up after surgery, not driving for 6 weeks etc etc. It IS safer to have a natural, vaginal delivery x

In some circumstances, Mrslowmain, not all.