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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Anyone else 'tricked' out of epidural? (part 2)

277 replies

Chynah · 23/02/2011 17:27

For those that feel the discussion still had some way to go........... please continue.....

OP posts:
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TheChewyToffeeMum · 24/02/2011 17:29

"You know before they even go into labour the ones that will end up with the epidural/c section." Hmm

TechnoKitten · 24/02/2011 17:31

Nonames, there is a reason why healthy mothers who have no problems with their babies should have an epidural, it's the main reason we put them in. Maternal choice. That choice needs to be fully informed including a discussion of risks and side effects, likely outcomes with and without and alternative strategies. If the patient would still like one after this then why should they not have what they are requesting?

Yes there may be some situations where it's not available (though they should be minimal) or not recommended - and then proper explanations and an alternative management plan should be discussed.

I don't think anyone's saying "epidurals for all, compulsory" and I don't think anyone's having a hissy fit (I did have a mild one earlier but I've had some sleep now). What people are saying is that they would like to be treated as autonomous individuals, they would like to take part in their health care choices and not have a request denied because their cared doesn't think they should have it. We treat toddlers like that but not adults. People are asking for transparency in the decisions made in their health care.

Some of the side effects in your article have no evidence base to back them up, some have been disproved and some are correct. None have the likelihood listed, it all smacks of scaremongering to me.

Re - cannulas. Having a large needle with a plastic tube shoved through your skin hurts! Maybe not as much as contractions but they are sore. A study showed that for the smaller sizes, the pain from local infiltration was more than from the cannula but for larger sizes, the cannula hurt more. So for a larger cannula (like those we use in epidurals and CS) I would always infiltrate with local first. Why cause extra pain?

Mahraih · 24/02/2011 17:36

I completely agree with MistyValley - it is the most vulnerable, accepting women who get the worst treatment overall, in my opinion.

I'm not saying we should be rude, scream the place down or threatene to sue, but my God, ask questions!

And nonamesavailable, if a woman does her research and decides she is happy with the risks involved with an epidural (as I did), then why should she not view it as a good option for childbirth? Of course some women will experience the side effects, hence the statistics, but they are rare. I had no side effects whatsoever, DS breastfed within an hour and had an Apgar score of 9 (docked 1 for breathing which, as he came out with the cord wrapped round his neck, is fair enough).

Scaremongering makes things worse for everyone.

Primafacie · 24/02/2011 17:37

Well nonames, it seems to be very important to you that your pain was worse than mine! You win - you have the gold medal for suffering. Shall we make you the gold standard for pain, and anyone's pain should be measured as against your abscess to determine whether it warrants pain relief?

Can you at all appreciate the irony? That perhaps your personal experience does not qualify you to decree that no "fit and healthy" woman needs pain relief in labour?

And no, the NHS website does not have "almost the same info" as your piece of scaremongering crap.

Primafacie · 24/02/2011 17:40
Orrieonko · 24/02/2011 17:59

I had a different experience so thought I'd show that some hospitals do listen. I gave birth at Hinchingbrooke Hospital in Huntingdon, Cambs and they were brilliant. As soon as I was 4cm they unprompted offered pain relief. I asked for an epidural 20 hours in out of 32 (I was in hospital for 24 hrs of those as had meconium in waters) and as soon as available (2 girls were apparently having an emergency C-Secton so they were obv. priority) they gave it to me.
Not for this thread but I wont ever have one again as it went into the wrong place(that very small statistic they warn you about) and I ended up laying flat on a bed for a week in agony needing two further procedures involving needles and spine to fix me....
Anyway I'm due again in Aug and will be in York where I'm told they do try and trick you out of one - not that it matters to me but if you want one you want one and it's your birth.

kangers · 24/02/2011 18:13

I am very interested in this thread- in fact so interested it made me join mumsnet today. I have had 3 children with gas and air at a northern, low-rated hospital. I think midwives/NHS are trapped between cost-cutting/saving, many women requesting a 'natural birth' (I did- I really did not have a clue),the training which emphasizes birth as a natural process and then the crazy headlines about increases in c-sections.
I was desperate for an epidural, but I was in such a state I am sure I would not have stayed still long enough to put one in. Yorkshire nurses are a tough breed and expect a lot from their birthing mothers!
The difference between my experiences and my friend who gave birth in Essex and Cologne (2 kids)are huge. In Germany there was as much pain relief as you want, plus champagne on delivery!
The nature of childbirth is pain- and my God it is the worst imaginable pain. But my gut instinct is that there is a fine line when to give an epidural- too soon and it slows it down, and too late and its pointless.....

nonamesavailable · 24/02/2011 19:28

lets take kangers post as an example.

As someone above said, you have NINE months to prepare for the day. NINE MONTHS. Kangers admits to 'not having a clue'. Why? Why didnt you spend some of that time in child birth classes/the library/asking a midwife about what to expect????

So you swan in and expect an epidural and champagne???

What about breathing/walking/eating/having a shower/staying home longer?

Epidurals take time and money -just to ease things that you could probably have sorted out yourself if you had made the smallest effort.

This is exactly the sort of post that makes me exasperated.

WonderingWhyIBother · 24/02/2011 19:33

I am a midwife, and I find this thread and the previous one so disheartening. The general opinion of midwives seems to be so poor, when most of us work very hard to help women acheive a birth they are happy with.

My preference is for normal, natural childbirth, I think it is generally the best to start to life for a baby and the best start to motherhood for a woman; however I recognise that there are always exceptions to this and for whatever reason - expectations/experience/personality some women will not find natural childbirth empowering, and I have the same respect for and obligation to these women. And then there are those who are not experiencing natural childbirth because we have already interfered e.g. induction (we as in the health care professionals working within maternity, which imo as a whole accepts such interventions far to readily :( ). I still want these women to find their labour and a birth a positive start to motherhood, or at least not a negative one.

My approach to pain relief is to discuss the options fairly early on in labour/induction where possible. Make sure women are aware of the pros and cons for each options, and then tell them they are free to ask me more about any of these options at any time but they are the best judge of how they are coping so I will wait for them to ask (I've never like the approach of offering an epidural/diamorphine persistently, I feel it gives the impression the midwife thinks the woman is not coping, when that might not be how the woman herself feels, and cause her to question herself and her ability to cope).

My list of cons for epidurals goes something like - they don't always take away all of the pain (an ineffective epidural is one of the most difficult things to deal with ime, especially if a woman has held off, feels she can't possibly cope any longer, and then still has to); You often won't be able to move/control your legs on the bed without assistance and you can't stand up; They can make labour longer, because you aren't mobile you don't have the benefit of gravity, in conjuntion with this they relax the pelvic floor muscles and can make it more difficult for the baby to move into a good position. This can result in intervention such as artificial rupture of membranes and augmentation of labour, which also carry risks; They can make pushing more difficult and longer because you often don't have the urge to push, and its harder without it (as well as the baby might not be in an optimal position, and you don't have the aid of gravity) which can increase the likelehood of an assisted delivery, and also of perineal trauma; We need to monitor the baby's heartrate constantly, continuous monitoring is linked with increased interventions such as fetal blood sampling and operative birth; You probably won't be aware of the sensation of needing to pass urine meaning a catheter would be required as its important to keep your bladder empty; You need a drip up, because epidurals can lower the blood pressure, which in turn can cause a drop in the baby's heartrate, so we try to counteract this with intravenous fluids, but sometimes it still happens; We also keep a closer eye on your blood pressure; It takes a while afterwards to get the feeling back in legs and be able to get up and about; Our policy is for clear fluids only for women with epidurals; A small amount of the drug used in the epidural crosses the placenta and this might make the baby sleepy and feeding, especially breastfeeding, a bit more difficult at first; You need to sit very very still for a short period of the process, and maintain the same general position for most of it, which can be uncomfotable when you are having contractions, it can be as quick as 15 minutes to get the epidural in place, but can also be quite a bit longer. I let the anaesthetist talk about the technical risks such as headaches etc. These are the risks and realities of an epidural, not me trying to trick a woman out of having one.

(I don't mention the possible effects on the hormonal process of labour, and how this might affect bonding/attatchment/breastfeeding/emotional and mental health, because this is an area still requiring a lot of study - but I certainly believe epidurals can impact on this)

The pros are, if they work well you will be pain free, and for some women this outweighs all of the risks (including the unmentioned hormonal stuff), only you can make that decision.

If a woman decides she wants an epidural I go and bleep the anaesthetist, generally they attend quite quickly. If they can't I always try and give the woman an indication as to why they can't come straight away (while maintaining confidentiality) and try and give an ETA, and continue to support her until he/she (or occasionally her baby!) arrives.

If a woman is in a panic and swinging bewteen wanting an epidural and not, or her partner/mum/sister is trying to convince her to have one, I tell her I think she is coping very well, and that I believe she will continue to cope without an epidural and we will all support her to do that if that's what she wants, but she is the only one who knows how she feels. I would never tell a woman I thought she needed an epidural.

We don't offer epidurals during the latent phase. And the anaesthetists where I work would be very reluctant to do one during the second stage. That is not a midwife decision, although it is one I support.

I try to offer the birthing pool as an alternative to an epidural where appropriate and available.

If women are being induced or augmented with syntocinon I always explain that these are different to natural contractions as we are forcing them, therefore the body doesn't have as much time to build up endorphins which can make the pain more difficult to deal with. For this reason we should offer epidurals to all women undergoing induction/augmentation, however if you want to see how you cope with the contractions before making a decision, or are keen to avoid an epidural I will do everything I can to support you.

I am not some evil woman who loves to watch other women suffer. I would not lie to or coerce a woman to stop her from getting an epidural. I am also not lazy, I work my arse off for every minute I am at work, I support every woman to the best of my ability and I believe all of these things are true of the majority of midwives. But I am definitely not perfect, and neither is the system. Midwives are often under a lot of pressure, looking after more than one labouring woman which dilutes the care they get, 13 hours shifts without a break etc, we're also human, and humans get stuff wrong sometimes.

A few years ago I cared for a woman who was being induced, when I transferred her from the antenatal ward to break her waters and proceed with the induction she was having irregular contractions, she told me she wanted an epidural for pain relief. I discussed the benefit of mobilising for a couple of hours following having her waters broken to allow the contractions to hopefully establish and avoid the syntocinon drip and asked her if she would be happy to do this, explaining if the drip was required she could have an epidural before it started. When I broke her waters her cervix was posterior, uneffaced and 2cms dilated, we agreed a plan to reassess in 2 hours and I hoped by that time her contractions would be more regular, there would be changes to her cervix and the drip wouldn't be required. Over the next hour and a half she mobilised, the contractions became more regular, and she asked for an epidural. But at this point she seemed to be involuntary pushing, so I asked if I could examine her before I rang the anaesthetist, she agreed and she was fully dilated, her baby was born less than 30 minutes later. I hope she doesn't think of me as a horrible midwife who denied her an epidural, and I really hope she isn't traumatised by the experience. I acted with her best intentions in mind, her progress in labour was unusually and unexpectedly fast, even the best and most experienced midwives (never mind just normal ones like me) are surprised sometimes, because nature is unpredictable. So maybe some of the women on here weren't cared for by evil lazy midwives, but just by normal human midwives, working in an overstretched system, who would be pretty devastated to learn they in anyway contributed to a woman being traumatised by her labour and birth.

Sorry its such a long post.

FunkyGlassSlipper · 24/02/2011 19:41

WonderingWhyIBother - thank you for coming on to post. FWIW I dont think most of us are saying all midwives are rubbish at all. In your last example you say that you made the decision about the epidural jointly with the mother. That is all that most of us are asking - that the situation is explained, and we can make an informed choice, as opposed to having no choice at all.

noisylurker · 24/02/2011 19:55

"you know before they even go into labour the ones that will end up with the edidural/c section"

er speechless

Anyway. Mahraih - again, I agree with you really. It's the 'survival of the fittest' element which irritates me in principle (and I'm talking generally, not suggesting this is what you're advocating).

From your own experience, you received a better experience because you were well informed and assertive. The more vulnerable patient didn't receive the same standard of care. She might not have known that the contractions would increase in intensity, but medical staff did. WHY wasn't there gas and air available?

I received pretty poor standards of care myself twice in 6 months. The first (DS's birth) I was unprepared for - not in the sense that I knew nothing, but in the sense that I wasn't prepared to have to fight for it. The second, I wasn't informed when I went in but I knew the 'care' wasn't right and I drew on every resource I had to inform myself and make it right. Including a meeting with the head of midwifery and a lot of noise about NICE guidelines. Suddenly the standard of care became a whole lot better (and I'm not talking spa break; I'm talking IV medication being administered the correct number of times each day, accurate advice being given, my 5 month and exclusively BF son being able to spend enough time with me to eat).

So I am proof that when you arm yourself with knowledge and make yourself heard, you can receive acceptable care. But as somebody who did that with a 99 degree temperature, hallucinations and significant pain, it angers me that it should be that way.

Mahraih · 24/02/2011 19:56

Wonderingwhyibother - excellent post. I had a lovely experience with the midwives during labour, who were all supportive and very professional. I knew all the risks of epidural, and felt it was worth it, in my case. Had it been a complication-free birth, perhaps not.

nonamesavailable - it was me that mentioned that one does have 9 months to prep for birth. And I do believe that we have a responsibility to ourselves and our wellbeing to use a bit of that time preparing for birth. Not for anyone else's benefit, but our own.

BUT I really do disagree with the rest of your post. Epidurals are not there to replace something you could 'sort out yourself'. Bloody no. I had an epidural AFTER labouring at home through the night, having a few baths, meditating, having showers, mobilising and having three sandwiches, labouring with gas and air for hours, etc. Epidurals are not the first port of call for the lazy woman.

YES epidurals cost time and money - and women are told during antenatal classes and meetings that epidurals are AVAILABLE. Don't make women feel guilty for wasting resources that are made available specifically for childbirth.

Mahraih · 24/02/2011 20:01

noisylurker - good question actually, I have no idea why she didn't receive the same standard of care, as we were being attended by the same midwives and consultants.

I know that her communication wasn't great, as English wasn't her second language, and that her conversations with hospital staff never seemed to 'get anywhere' because of that barrier between them. She also had no idea what she wanted, and I sensed (this is just my opinion) that the staff didn't want to change what they were doing and because she didn't have another suggestion, they went ahead.

I totally agree with you, that this shouldn't be the case. We're both proof that if you come with knowledge adn are able to be assertive, it helps a lot. But some women simply aren't able to be that way, for whatever reason. And they shouldn't lose out.

noisylurker · 24/02/2011 20:08

wonderingwhyIbother just wanted to add that I am very disillusioned with the NHS as a whole, but honestly don't assume that all staff are the same. From my own friends and family who are medical professionals, I know how hard they work and how frustrated they also get at times.

I have come across some wards with a really odd ethos and staff who are just plain awful as a whole. I've also come across some brilliant, brilliant staff. Mostly I've come across staff working their arses off but without the time and resources or correct policies to do any more than a just about adequate job.

Also the nature of the thread title is going to attract posters who like me have had a more negative experience... the balance isn't really representative :)

HarderToKidnap · 24/02/2011 20:10

I am a midwife, working between community and the labour ward. I'd just like to comment on the recurring theme here about epidurals for women who are not in established labour (NIEL), and that these women are entitled to an epidural according to NICE guidelines.

Whilst I appreciate what the guidelines say, and also that early labour can be be agoningly painful, fulfilling requests for epidural when women are NIEL is just a pipe dream. We get at least five admissions a day from women who would like to have an epidural NIEL. At the moment they are either sent home with some cocodamol and come back IEL or, if they are really really not coping, occasioanally admitted to the antenatal ward for an opiate injection (and they would have to be writhing around screaming, refusing to get up, etc etc to get that treatment).

The reason is not because we hate women, but because of bed constraints. I work at one of the busiest London hospitals and we have 12 labour beds. They are almost all always full. The antenatal ward is a joke, it is so busy. Admitting women NIEL would require a capital build to actually add more floors to the maternity unit, at least five more midwives on shift every shift, and probably one more anuesthetist. That's an initial investment of millions of pounds for building work, and ongoing yearly costs running into many tens of thousands. It will absolutely never ever happen, not in the best of times, so especially not now.

I am a little worried about lots of women reading this and thinking that if they go in armed with a laminated copy of the NICE giudelines, they will get an epidural regardless of their dilatation. They will not, I am sorry, and that is absolutely nothing to do with midwives. It is hospital policy, in the majority of places.

Incidentally, I have cared for one woman in labour who I know thinks I denied her an epidural. I didn't, the anaesthetist was in theatre with an EMCS that turned into a four hour long emergency. The other anaesthetist on site (middle of the night, of course) was in ITU and couldn't leave. I explained as clearly as possible but she was in such agony that she could not rationally listen to me. It was a couple of years ago and I still feel bad about it.

nonamesavailable · 24/02/2011 20:13

mahraih - you haven't noticed that I have said some woman and if on all my posts. I understand that some woman aren't as fortunate as others when it comes to an easy birth but my gripe here is the amount of posts like kangers above ^^ who do nothing to educate themselves and think they can turn to this thing called an epidural if it all gets too much. It's ignorant and completely unnecessary in this day and age to get to hospital clueless unless you are 14.

kangers · 24/02/2011 20:25

Nonamesavailable you have misunderstood my phrase ' I had no idea'- I read every book going, I was fully aware of the 3 stages of labour, different delivery methods, the importance of keeping active etc etc. But NOTHING can prepare anyone for the high level of pain involved in childbirth. Before the birth you think people are exaggerating, and think you will cope. Most people are thankfully not totally honest about it. I did not think that mother nature would inflict such torture on her own. I would definitely rather have died than carried on, but no one would kill me despite me asking regularly. And I did not expect champagne- I'm northern!!!

Thats the problem with childbirth-most people can't imagine it until it happens.

Plus midwives are great, but can be overworked and occasionally be a bit terse. The system is at fault not the midwives.

LucyBTA · 24/02/2011 20:28

Just to let you know that I will be discussing the issue of women being denied epidurals on Woman's Hour tomorrow at ten, if anyone is interested. A representative from the Royal College of Midwives will also be on. For those of you who didn't manage to wade through the thousand posts on the other thread :), I represent the Birth Trauma Association.

Primafacie · 24/02/2011 20:31

Wondering, can I echo Mahraih and Funky and thank you for your excellent post. I just want to say I also think most midwives are caring, professional and want the best for mothers and babies. You clearly are one of them, and so was the one who attended my birth - even though I never got my epidural, she made me feel secure and guided me through the birth in a very calm way, and for that I am very thankful.

Can I ask you a question about my birth plan for DC2? How can I make it clear that I do really, really, really want an epidural this time? I appreciate that lots of women want to be given alternative coping strategies and by offering that you are doing what you are trained to do, and that's fine. But I genuinely don't want that. Are there any "magic words" that will make the midwife bleep the anaesthetist?

NellieForbush · 24/02/2011 20:31

Predominantly when posters have been denied an epidural it is because the midwife seem to be reluctant for them to have one and not because of limited resources.

There seems to be a pernicious belief that women should have to endure unspeakable pain before they are entitled to pain relief.

Some of the midwives on here are clearly 'against' epidurals and see themselves able to judge how bad someone elses pain is.

WonderingWhyIBother Sorry, but there are some awful midwives out there who are just unable to hear what people are saying. There are some great ones too. Mine was a wonderful one Smile. Just from the language you use 'we agreed a plan' I guess you are another good one. As noisylurker says this thread is not representative.

Technokitten thanks for listening. Wish there were a few more of you.

nonamesavailable Women have been giving birth for years etc etc The 'thats the way its always been' line is just about the weakest argument I have heard in a debate on any subject. So what? Now we have epidurals available. You don't have to have one if you don't want. Don't know wtf your fallopian abscess has to do with anything [hands out medal]. It doesn't qualify you to rate anyone elses pain or decide if they should be granted pain relief.

noisylurker · 24/02/2011 20:34

hehe nellieforbush

kangers · 24/02/2011 20:38

loving your summary nellie. After my experiences, if I was a midwife, I would give everyone an epidural!!!!!! Grin

Primafacie · 24/02/2011 20:49

Hardertokidnap, I suspect you are right that there is no capacity to give epis in the latent stage, in spite of NICE guidelines. This really worries me - last time I went from 4 to 10 cm in 3 hours and it felt like I was being sawed in two. I know I am likely to have an even shorter labour this time around, but I do not want to endure that pain again - I would like to actually remember something about giving birth rather than just the agony of it. If I am turned back at 2 or 3 cms, I am worried the next time they check me I am going to be told "it's too late, you are in transition, get ready to push now". Is there anything I can do to get an epidural in the right window, or am I just doomed?

HarderToKidnap · 24/02/2011 20:57

Just absolutely INSIST on more regular VEs. A midwife may counsel against frequent VEs but if you state quite firmly that you understand and accept the risks but are prepared to run those risks in order to get an epidural, and get your partner to back you up and write the same in your birth plan, I can't see it being refused.

I recently had a weird night shift where I attempted to get epidurals sited on three multips in a row, only for every one of them to deliver as the epidural was being sited. On the last delivery the anaesthetist took one look at me and was like "YOU again!! Can you promise me I might actually get to finish my job this time?" I assured her that this woman was only 3cm, and of course she lifted her leg up and started pushing as the epidural was going in... the moral is that multip labours can move intensely fast and you may not get you epi even if you are 3cm and the anaesthetist attends as soon as she is called.

beakysmum · 24/02/2011 21:01

Harder, I do sympathise with you midwives, in that it is often the limits of the system which deny women epidurals, rather than a midwife's ideology which denies the epidural.

However, surely something can be offered to women NIEL? They have come in precisely because they feel they are no longer coping at home and need some support / pain relief. Could they stay with G & A? Could there be more Health Care Support Workers (HCSWs) or doulas to sit with these women? Give pethidine? And what about the post by an anaesthetist much earlier that really severe pain in the latent stage often indicates malpositioning of baby, especially if the latent stage is lasting a long time?

Incidentally, I thought Bill Turnbull's face was a picture on the BBC yesterday. He really couldn't understand why women asking for epidurals were being refused, and for me that sums the debate on this thread up.

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