Anyone else 'tricked' out of epidural?

[liznay]

I went over my birth notes today at the 'Birth Reflections' service at my local hospital. (In order to get closure and prepare for No 2!)
To cut a long story short, My previous labour was 27 hours from start to finish although I was only admitted for the last 7 hours.

I asked for an epidural no less than 6 times during this period and was given the excuse that I needed to be 4 cm before I could get one.
Suprise, Suprise, no one would examine me to check how dilated I was and so then it became 'too late' to give me once I had reached 10 cm.
Despite Nice guidelines saying that no woman should be refused an epidural (even in the latent first stage!) apparently the hospital have their own policy.
I am SO ANGRY about this and feel that I was ignored and treated like a small child. Incidentally, the hospital are unapologetic about this and refused to say sorry about the care I received. The most that they would conceed was that they had 'somehow failed me'.
Why is this still happening to us in the 21st century? Anyone else had a similar experience? What can we do about it, and how can we prevent it happening for subsequent births? It's time that midwives stopped deciding for us how much pain relief we need and consult with us regarding how to make our births more comfortable. Not saying that all midwives are like this, but mine was a particular dragon....
I don't want this to turn into a debate on the pro's/cons of epidurals as this has been done to death elsewhere...

Difficult area.

FWIW I had an epi for birth number 1 and none for the second. I could have opted either way for both births and the staff were fine. When I went for an epi the anesthetist was there within 20mins.

Rightly or wrongly there is a bit of me that thinks women should give birth without epis if they can. I think we are too quick to medicalise birth when after all we are built to give birth. I am not talking about where there are inductions or back to back labours but straightforward births. Birth is painful after all! I guess the counter argument is that if the pain relief is there then why not have it - but the downside to epis isn't always made clear either.

It's a very personal choice and guess what I am saying is that generally from what I know amongst friends, the support is usually there either way- not withstanding some of the bad experiences outlined on here.

Haven't read all replies to this but haven't noticed anyone mentioning Fat Mums. I wanted an epidural with No.1 son, anaesthetist was called & came into the room announcing 'who said SHE could have an epidural?!' I was a size 18/20 at that time. She came over to me, squeezed my spare tyre & tutted loudly. I was in labour at this point & progressing quite quickly so it wasn't the best idea to be so obviously disapproving & Fatist. "If you're not capable of doing your job then you can just p* off" I growled. She left & the midwife was quite delighted by my reaction. She turned out to be very supportive during a difficult forcep delivery of a 9 & a half pounder with G&A, pethidine & an out of body experience!

I really could've done with that epidural though! I never asked for another one with my subsequent babies; a 10 pounder & a 'tiny' 8lb. I simply didn't want the humiliation.

I have nothing but praise for my experience of giving birth, thankfully.

My labour was a staggering 48 hours from first twinges to delivery. Unfortunately for me, my DD was spine-to-spine, so that's why I had a particularly long and painful labour.

The only thing that pissed me off was the receptionists telling my DH that I couldn't come in to the delivery suite, because my contractions weren't some magic, formulaic 5 minutes apart - they were betweenn 1 minute and 9 minutes apart. I think she told him to bring me on in when she hurt me shout to him " I'm not a fucking robot, tell her I coming in as I'm in fucking agony"!!!!

I was 5cms dilated when we go there, and got on the gas and air straight away. I asked for an epidural about 3 hours later, and was given one straightaway.

The midwives were very supportive, and my DD was delivered by ventouse after a hideous, exhausing 4 hours of pushing.

The worst part was up on the ward after delivery -there were terribly understaffed, and when I rang for help to go the loo, the nurse was really snotty. I couldn't get up as my legs were still not working from the epidurall - she still made me try to get though! Silly cow.....

I am now pg, and am considering a home birth - only because I just don't like hospitals. I may not get the home birth, and to be honest, the thought of not being able to have an epidural is quite frightening, but i'm hoping this birth will be somehow easier that my DD.

My main fear is the dreaded forceps......don't get me started on them .

I think it's so appalling that women are having such awful birth experiences in this day and age - something needs to be done to stop this from happening.

HAvent read all the posts
but I was refused an epidural too
after being induced, was told there are no rooms on the labour ward for us to do it in! and no-one available to do it ( there was no room for me to labour in either had to do it on a 6 bedded ward, only got a room for the butchery of instrumental delivery !

baby was back to back and I ended up with failed ventouse, manual turning then forceps

Its in my birth notes too that I requested but was told no. 2 years after thebirth
I had a debriefing and was told by the head midwife we are sorry we failed you!

There's no mention on here of CSE's (Combined Spinal Epidural), the type of epidural which allows you to retain some degree of movement, therefore avoiding the possibility of slowing the birth down and requiring intervention.
I had my DS in France where this type (and any type) of epidural are freely available. It was a really enjoyable experience where i could walk up and down and sit on a birthing ball, made even better by the fantastic level of care and 1 to 1 midwife presence thoughtout. I didn't even need 1 stitch.
Surely it would be less costly (and more humaine) for the NHS to invest in this kind of epidural than to keep allowing women to go through traumatic births requiring intervention.
Some of these stories are horrific. We really do have a 3rd World health system. Can we not petition the PM since he was so ken to have Mumsnet support before the election??? :)

Like others I haven't read all the posts but it is a subject close to her heart. When I had my 1st child she became distressed and I had an Emergenct csection with General anasethic. (sp) When I was admitted with my 2nd for a VBAC I asked for an epidural quite early. Not so much for pain relief but more as a precaution in case 2nd dc became distressed like 1st and I would miss out on birth again. I was basically told that labour would be treated as normal until proved to the contrary. Never asked for an epidural again, When I reached 8-9cms I was advised to gave a csection for failure to progress. Fortunately, there was time for a Spinal Block so it all worked out ok in th end.

Sorry fro your experience OP.

I'm really surprised about having to give one to one care for women with an epidural.

I had a horrible birth - I was in a lot of pain but that wasn't the bad ting - it was DS being in distress and me being shoved into a side room in triage for nearly twelve hours and left on my own for up to an hour a time and no offer or pain relief despite him being back to back for some of the time and no one explaining what was happening to DS.

Then eventually got move to consultant led wing and had epidural but never got one to one care. On my own for large periods of time and different midwives lots. Only started getting more attention when his heart beat started dropping after contractions. Eventually had CS.

Waited until DS is nearly three before I can even consider exposing another child to that kind of care again and will elect to have CS if we are lucky enough to get pg again. I hate the recovery period but I have zero confidence that they'll even know I'm in the hospital once admitted let alone care for me.

I am astounded to read the posts on here but also doubly-grateful for the birth experience I had with my DD1.

My waters broke, green (although I didn't realise at the time, I thought they were going to be bright green to be green!) and we went into hospitals when the contractions were 3 mins apart. My DD was back to back and the back pain was a lot worse than the contractions! When they realised my waters were green they hooked me up on fetal monitoring which meant that I could only walk three steps in one direction, three steps the other and moving seemed to be the only form of pain relief that worked for me (whoever invented G&A should be shot in my opinion, did absolutely nothing for me other than make me feel sick).

After about 10 hours, I asked for, and was given, an epidural (I had to wait a bit as they had a c-section going on). The midwife said, which I thought was incredibly supportive 'you've worked as hard as you could', which did make me feel good (not that I would have backed down from it anyway).

From this moment on we had one-to-one MW care - until then they'd only looked in occassionally (which was fine for DH and I)- which I thought was absolutely pointless as by this time I was fine and actually asleep for some of the time.

In the end my DD was born by forceps and I'd been given so much pain relief that I was shaking on the operating table. But I have nothing but great memories about my labour (echoing the other comments in the thread above, the post-natal ward is a completely different matter and next time I am going to check myself out asap).

I had really feared not being given an epidural especially because there is a huge number of home births in my area and I thought the midwives would be anti-intervention (like the extremely militarist NCT teacher at my ante-natal class). I had made it clear in my birthplan that I wanted one if I asked but apparently you don't always get what you ask for it seems. I was ready to go to bat for it (and so was DH) but felt great that I didn't have to do so.

This was at King's College Hospital in London and I just hope the birth of my next child in July will be as positive!

As for attitude of 'child birth is natural and should hurt' or 'the less pain management you can cope with the better' I can't believe that this is still the attitude in the 21st Century and it is completely unacceptable.

Let's start compiling stats on which hospitals have a supportive structure for helping each one of us have the kind of birth we want (with or without pain relief). Then other people can choose which hospital they want to go to!

"Rightly or wrongly there is a bit of me that thinks women should give birth without epis if they can.... Birth is painful after all!"

fifitot, FWIW, I wouldn't oppose your desire to give birth without pain relief, if that was what you wanted. If you personally believe that pain is part of the birth experience, and should be endured - I disagree, but it is your right to embrace those aspects of birth that are important to you.

But you have no right to expect other women to endure unwanted pain. All surgery is painful, but that doesn't mean all patients have to fight for anaesthesia. It seems to be a bullying indignity that we reserve for labouring women.

And by all means provide women with accurate information about the known risks of epidurals (and all pain relief), so they can make an informed decision. Choice is only choice when it is informed choice. Otherwise it's just grasping at straws.

alot of midwives don't seem suited to their jobs, perhaps they hate it, but can't get another job on the same salery as thats all they know

i know they are not all bad, but theres quite a few that are bloody horrid

bit like pe teachers, why do you get some many horrible pe teachers?

fifitot - everyone's pain threshold is different so whilst one person could go through a difficult birth with no pain meds, another woman might need pain meds for an apparently normal birth - should she be denied the pain medication if the potential impact of her birth with last with her for months, if not years.

Both my births were back to back. I didnt even know what that meant until after I delivered. Had I understand it to mean 'legitemately' more painful than a normal labour I wouldnt have tried to stay natural for as long as I did. And I would feel less resentment toward the midwives who left me in such pain for so long...

I have had 4 pg and not managed to get an epidural for any of them. My DS1 was born 14 years ago and my hospital would only do epidurals mon-fri 9-5. So you were fucked if you went into labour overnight or at the weekend. (I complained to the local newspaper about it).

That policy changed to a 24 hour epidural service, but I feel it was an 'official', 'on paper' change rather than a true change of policy.

With DS2 and DS3 my labour were too fast for epidurals, but for DD she was induced and the hospital (same one) kept telling me I wasn't dilated enough for an epidural. They talked me into having pethidine and surprise, surprise, I got to 10cm without getting the pain relief I really wanted.

I feel angry and cheated at the patronising way hospitals treat labouring women. When I was on the ward, having been induced, there were distressed women on their own, suffering. One woman there had previously had a stillbirth but was left alone in labour and had been on that ward for a week! My mum and DH refused to leave at night when the staff tried to kick them out and the whole experience of that ward was like being in a cattle market.

I can't complain about the quality of care in terms of actual delivery/stitches afterwards. The MW were very skilled, but emotional care of women at a vulnerable time was severely lacking.

There was a foreign woman on my post natal ward, who couldn't speak English. She was ignoring her baby and I saw the MWs tutting and giving her dirty looks. I don't know the circumstances, but something was obviously very wrong there.

this is in response to the argument a while back that women are traumatised more by poor care and not being listened to rather than pain in and of itself. well i was very lucky in that i had fab mws, a great doula, an incredible dh and a superb anaesthetist. i was lucky that i got my epi very quickly, although it still seemed like an eternity. yet i was still traumatised. it was not at the way i was treated because i was treated well and my expressed needs were taken seriously. i was traumatised at the horrendous pain that was far beyond anything i had ever imagined it was possible to experience. i thought i was going to die. i was massively shocked at the experience and had problems in the short term bonding with dd. pain can be intrinsically harmful in and of itself - you just need to adopt a more holistic and imaginative definition of harm.
as for the argument that this is something our bodies are designed to deal with. well, ok, yeah. and i'm sure that my labour (no forceps or ventouse, no induction, only a 2nd degree tear, normal presentation of an average sized baby) has been classed as straightforward and a success. well, i beg to differ. my tears became infected, opened up and healed with adhesions that needed breaking manually. my pelvic floor is shot to bits and requires intensive physio and electronic stimulation otherwise i am at risk of incontinence. and the orthopaedic surgeon i have just seen about my pelvic and coccyx pain tells me i am lucky not to have broken my coccyx which is out of alignment and will require manipulation under anaesthesia to put back into place. i will get anaesthesia to put the bone back, but given that my birth was "uncomplicated and normal" some would have had me endure it being forced out of position with no pain relief other than g&a, water and relaxation/visualisation. all of these were useless to me. i don't think my experience was that unusual at all and plenty of women on here and other threads have fared worse than me.

mercibucket : "I believe that in spain if you want an epidural you have to go to a session first to hear the disadvantages and sign a consent form before you go into labour"

Really? That is news to me. I had DS in Barcelona on the public health system. I didn't have to sign any consent form.

I was told in ante natal classes that childbirth was very painful and that it would be a good idea to have an epidural. We didn't have birth plans, and there was no choice in where to have baby. Unless you can afford private, you have to have the baby in hospital, no water birth, no home birth etc.

DP was very anti-being present for the birth, and as I had no family or friends around to act as birthing partner, I accepted that I would probably just have the epi unless I felt I was coping.

There was never any issue with regards to pain relief, they asked me at one point if I wanted an epi. DP had gone home "to rest", I was all alone, I was in a lot of pain, staff sort of ignored me and no one offered real emotional support, so I took the offer. I have never regretted it.

"sue them until the pips squeek"

We'd only be suing ourselves, because we pay for the NHS; if lots of people take legal action against it, then the money (much of which would go to legal firms) would come out of general NHS expenditure.

So maybe women (or their partners) should be much more forceful about demanding pain relief. But if spend on epidurals goes up without an increase in the number of midwives, prepare to hear even more horror stories about women delivering alone in hospital toilets and in corridors.

And I'm thinking that maybe some women really don't want midwives - they want obstetric nurses. Maybe there's a role for them after all. And maybe it would attract a different type of person - the sort of person who's more interested in nursing, administering drugs and working with medical technology than in the physiology of normal birth.

"I cannot tell you how angry this thread has made me,some of the stories are frankly horrific.

Sue them sue them sue them. Sue them up hill and down dale, sue them into the middle of next week, sue them until you see the whites of their eyes.

Seriously, this issue will never be taken seriously until it starts to hit where it hurts. If we are in a situation wehre NICE guidelines are being then it really is time to act

if you have been left mentally traumatised by a refusal/failure to comply with a (timely!) request for an epidural, sue them until the pips squeek."

Oh yeah that'll help.

Sue "them" (who?) for what exactly?

Irresponsible scaremongering, cleofartra. For shame.

More women asking for epidurals to which, according to NICE guidelines, they are entitled will not lead to "even more horror stories about women delivering alone in hospital toilets and in corridors."

You might as well argue that more women having homebirths, with the need for one to one MW care, would lead to the same. That would be misleading provocative twaddle too.

It might well rocket the need for additional resources and maternity care to the top of the NHS agenda - and about time.

There are plenty of stories on this thread about labouring mothers who were denied epidurals not because of a lack of staff, but because their MWs refused them. Resources are irrelevant there.

I'm sure women would like MWs who are 'interested in the physiology of normal birth.' I'm sure they would also like them to be respectful of their requests for pain relief, to be supportive not bullying, and not to see their job as getting a baby out of a woman without 'drugs and medical technology', no matter what the physical, mental and emotional cost to the mother.

I think Cleofatra just summed it up. A lot of midwives are just not interested in nursing - which I naively thought was the main purpose of their role.

I am so sad to read about some of the experiences here. I have been lucky with my experiences. I had DD at a very bsy London hospital and was talked into having an epidural by the by the lovely midwife. The anaesthist appeared within minutes and I gave birth without any assistance. I didn't receive 1 to 1 care though. Its the first time I have heard of that. The second time I had a super quick birth without any pain relief. I found it more traumatic but recovered more quickly. All the midwives were wonderful but I know this is not always the case. I have several friends in the health care professions and have heard on several occassions the saying 'I like the babies but not the women' . Its this level of contempt for a group of people who are at their most vulnerable but whom these health care professionals have chosen to work with who need to be dealt with. I am by no means saying they are the majority but they are there.

Midwifery is completely different to nursing, it's like comparing a plumber to an electrician. Aye they're both handy about the house but that's pretty much where the similarities end.

You get good midwives and bad. Like you do anywhere. Being a midwife does not make you superhuman, you get it wrong sometimes, LIKE EVERYONE DOES. You go to work and do your job the best way you know how, most midwives go into this not because of the money because I can confirm the wages are shite but to truly be 'with woman'. Whatever that means, whether that means hlding her hnd whilst the epidural is sited or crawling around on her hands and knees trying to pick up the fetal heart whilst the woman paces back and forth in a bid to cope with the contractions in a non pharmalogical way.

A good midwife will discuss everything and ensure that a woman is making an informed choice, a busy midwife might not be able to. More midwives is what we need.

Reading this has brought back the anger I felt about my birth experience. I had a 7 hour labor from start to finish. I said immediately upon arriving at the hospital that I wanted an epidural. They said it was too early (1CM). They then left me for 3 hours (I kept telling my DH to go and find someone)and then checked me. I was too dilated and was told 'you are about to have the baby here in the room so no time for an epidural'. I pushed for 4 f-ing hours begging for help. Rubbish total rubbish. My DD is now 2 and there is no way on this earth I am going through another birth. My birth plan was completely ignored - every single aspect of it. I also wanted to breast feed but there was no one to help. We were left for another FOUR hours after the birth and then they came into the room and said 'are you still here?' 'Have you fed her?'. That's south east/home counties hospitals for you??

Anyway, rant over. I'm not surprised refusal of epidurals is so widespread. I was treated like a stupid little girl (at least it felt like that).

This is a genuine question and so I'd really appreciate it if folks who have been in this situation could answer it honestly and without getting angry etc.

Do you genuinely believe that siting epidurals at 1cm is a good idea/use of resources?

I made different choices, and was particularly fortunate with my first DC to be enabled to have her in a water pool at Tooting Hospital.

With my second DC I was told I wouldn't be able to use water as they were re-decorating the room ! This was the day before his birth.

Very upsetting, the day before birth, to be denied the birth options I wanted, and that had worked so well for me the first time round. ( Though as he arrived very quickly, and as able to labour at home in the bath for first stage, it did work out O.K. Though as reluctant to leave my bath, and as labour so quick, he did nearly arrive in the hospital car-park, which actually was quite scary and far from ideal.)

So, basically agree that women should be trusted to be much more involved in deciding the sort of birth they'd prefer. And their choices much more respected. Whatever those choices are !

Good luck to all

As an aside, I do remember cleofartra when you posted as tittybangbang, you described yourself as an antenatal teacher and trainee doula.

I suspect we are many poles apart in our views on women and childbirth, and each to their own - you have your opinions, I have mine.

But I am genuinely chilled by your on the wing definition of a MW as someone 'interested in the physiology of normal birth' - with the exclusion of 'nursing', as if that was insignificant, or not part of the role.

I've remembered a very sad article in the Guardian by Emily Woof, which described how the independent MW she hired to help with her planned homebirth simply vanished when she had to transfer to hospital for an emergency CS. As if she, as a client, was no longer 'interesting' to her MW, having 'failed' at natural home birth.

I would have so much more faith in a MW who saw it as her job to support me, not turn me into a project, and potentially ignore my feelings and wishes as she did so.