Smearing and playing at 13.

[GloomyOrion]

Posting because I am at the end of my tether and veer between desperate fear and fury.

Ds has always been a bit odd, but quirkyand coped. He's funny about food but will eat random shit. He's a chewer of many things. We suspect asd and have got a referral pending.

About 8 months ago, he started having issues with excrement. Long story short: he's admitted to playing with it. We find rolled balls mainly in his room. His clothes are often smeared. I try not to shout, but sometimes it's just too much. We were all sick this week. I'm never, ever sick, but I'm assuming his faecal matter is all over the house.

As a side issue if he doesn't want food etc he will hide it in random places, so that we then find rotting food in random places.

Is there a way through this? I feel like I'm living on a hamster wheel. Ds won't talk about any of it.

Yeah, job changing can't happen. There is no flexibility in our jobs. But I do get school holidays.

I discussed play doh with him the other week and he agreed to that. He can discuss it all rationally with me; agree to at least clean up afterwards, so that we're not all touching it, but then back we go. And I can be calm and rational too, but then when you walk in the room again after you've just cleaned and there are little balls of shit under the bed again, or shit encrusted t shirts, or you can't touch the bathroom taps because they're covered, it gets too much.

Rewards don't work, as he forgets . Time is something of an abstract construct for him. 7 minutes, 7 hours.. they're all one.

I have bought him chew toys for his chewing random stuff habit. He absently destroys lots of things.

To an outsider, apart from being shy if he doesn't know you, he's just like any other teen. Tells me he's not unhappy, just likes his space and just likes the feel of poo.

I don’t know how you can rather have shit balls under the bed than consider changing jobs?
I would be at the school and GP daily until I got support for this. I think you’re taking this too calmly and expecting it will just magic itself away?

Whilst waiting for the GP get a private ASD diagnosis and get that confirmed if appropriate (the NHS one will help with accessing other NHS therapies). DDs private diagnosis took 6 weeks start to finish instead of 4+years on NHS.

Put other things in place that support children with ASD, noise cancelling headphones, tangle fidgets, play doh, body sock etc etc and see if any of those things help.

Get him to help you clean it up, or at least inconvenience him enough that he has to stand and help you whilst the adults clean it up so he isn't just getting to do his own thing.

Oh god, I'm so sorry. I don't really know how to help but hope you and your family can work through this.

I think a sensory assessment privately if you can afford it would be money well spent.
Sensory needs are wide ranging and interventions / resources need to be targeted to the specific need.
I know it is grim but ask him what it is he likes about the feel of poo. Then look to see if you can replace it. It probably won't be with standard playdough. You might need to make some , explore textures etc.
also see if there are patterns - what time of day does this happen, what happened before etc.
Sometimes with extreme behaviours we have to look for extreme solutions. There is a need for this, a compulsion, no matter how hard that is for us to understand. Start by setting boundaries around it. Again it sounds grim but thinks like - this can only happen in the bathroom, you must clean up using this, you have to wash your hands.
Giving permission and controlling it will stop him hiding it. He needs to know you understand and you want to help.
It is not just going to stop.

If it turns out that your DC does have ASD then what you/ and DH are actually saying is that you don't want to change your lifestyles to support your disabled child with their disability. That doesn't sound right does it?

I had to change jobs and industries to support DD and took a pay cut but it had to be done. I needed more flexibility, previously I was a teacher and absolutely could not be late in the mornings as I had a form. DD started High school and her quirks started causing her significant issues and she got her ASD diagnosis. Just this week she had a panic attack in the car on the way to school as she thought we were going to be late (we weren't even running late) , would have been a disaster in my last role, I just sent a message to my new line manager saying I was going to be a bit late and that was it. Parents of children with disabilities need to make adjustments even if those children aren't disabled by their disability ASD all of the time. It's hard and it's unfair but it is what it is.

Posters are being a bit melodramatic. It’s not as unusual as you might think, especially in YP with ASD. It’s often related to sensory needs. Discuss with the Psychologist involved in his ASD assessment.

Another one chiming in with a degree of reassurance. I used to work for a family where one young member did the 'smearing and hiding' thing. He was diagnosed with ASD quite young, but he grew out of the smearing thing and got married last year. So there is hope.

I think you do have to consider that the amount of time that he is on his own might be the/a source of stress. Presumably he hasn't been left that long for more than a couple of years as he is only 13?

I also have a 13yo DS with many autistic traits. We started a similar set up (on his own an hour in the morning and 1-2hrs after school) from Y7. He likes his own space and time and is quite independent so we thought he might actually enjoy it. Over the space of a few months he became increasingly anxious and even a bit depressed. We couldn't understand why, but when we really dug into it, it was that he was on his own too much.

DH and I are both teachers so it wasn't easy to solve, but we moved heaven and earth to make sure he wasn't alone at all in the morning or for more than 30mins after school. He was instantly much happier.

He's going into Y9 in Sept and wants to try doing mornings independently again as he wants to sleep in longer. We'll see if it is OK or not.

I'm still trying to work out why your jobs are more important than helping your child.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but if you have amazing jobs that you really love, that's great, but you could arrange to start later/finish later and your DH vice versa so there's someone in the house.

If you have crappy jobs and are struggling, there's a million crappy jobs so just switch to one where you can look after your child.

Apart from your child, you house smells and is covered in shit, I'd be happy to downsize than live in that environment.

As the mother of a 13 year old with MH issues (albeit very different) I salute you. It's so hard, staying calm in the face of self-defeating and plain weird behaviours.

A pragmatic point - if it's the feel of poo he seeks out, I'd try and get him some actual potters' clay. I can't be sure, never having handled poop, but I'd guess that clay reproduces the haptic qualities of poo better than playdoh. Or make salt dough?

And - you say compulsion, do you mean this is a peculiar version of OCD? the opposite of compulsive hand washing in a way? Aren't there medicines for OCD? May be worth following up.

Could it be a very out of the way cognitive disorder that makes it hard for him to categorise things - what is edible and what isn't, what is a toy and what isn't? Makes me think of J Sacks, the man who mistook his wife for a hat.

Lastly, could he have an unusual metabolic disorder that makes him crave weird stuff? Can you get very comprehensive blood works done somewhere to see if there's too much or too little of anything?

All the best.

I think encouraging him to use similar textures like play doh and clay is a good idea. You can get scented sensory play doh so something in a smell he likes might be worth a try.

Have you tried using visual charts for him? Similar to a visual timetable but you could put one in the loo showing the steps to using the toilet hygienically.

My son is asd and adhd diagnosed and he did this as a toddler and then again a few years later (he was constipated so this seemed to cause an issue). I find a lot of sensory things help, encourage regular bathing especially after toileting and explaining hygiene to him. My son seems to love slime and this helps as well as a weighted blanket. As for the food ban it upstairs, only allow him to eat downstairs as this will stop the rotten food and explain if he doesn’t want to eat something he doesn’t have to. Also, it may be an anxiety issue so speak to possibly an early help person(they are based in with the health visitors and work for the local authority and are great for families who need some extra support but don’t require children’s services, they are great for advocating especially when it comes to referrals for asd and helping with issues around sensory) I’ve used one to help move house and also, to help get referrals for my son and sleep and anxiety issues for him. They have also helped with school and making sure all of the right support is in place

As someone who works in an sen school and sees this type of behaviour more often than you would think, there are usually a few reasons for it.

Sensory needs is a big one and a sensory assessment would probably help, I would usually suggest offering alternatives but it sounds like you’ve done that and it hasn’t really changed.

Does your son eat random things? Like non edible things? This could indicate possible PICA. Children with PICA are much more likely to get blockages if they’ve been eating things that the body can’t digest, this can then cause the child to smear (and in some cases even eat their own poo).

The final reason that we’ve seen in school is a child that was being abused. Is it possible there is any kind of abuse/bullying happening? This may be hard to find out if your son won’t communicate with you.

Unless you work out what is the main cause of the behaviour, it will be almost impossible to stop. Go back to the doctor asap and explain the smearing etc and ask for an urgent referral or if you can afford it go private.

I'd go back to your GP/chase the school. My GP also wouldn't refer (really common because they don't want the paperwork) but school were great in terms of offering support pre diagnosis.

I'd go out and buy a variety of different clays, playdohs etc to see if any work.

My DC seems very 'normal' on the surface apart from very shy like your son. Underneath there's a whole load of sensory issues. It can difficult when the problems aren't outwardly obvious to everyone but it's definitely worth pushing through with getting help.

My DS9 goes through stages of this sensory type behaviour. He has ASD. He did the poo smearing and hiding but was a lot younger. He goes through stages of throwing things out of the windows into our garden. He chews bits of cushions. It is worse when he is bored or under stimulated. Hugs OP, it is a nightmare.

Hey OP,

Sending you solidarity. People just don't get it unless they're living with it. We have an 11 yo DS with ASD and ADHD. His issues are different than your son's (over-focus/ lashing out/ anger) but similarly they make life so difficult. I often cry with frustration or sadness in mourning for the life I don't have any more. With 2 older NT DS our lives were completely different. No-one can criticise you or your DH for shouting as they've never lived your life or felt your frustration and helplessness.

For the posters pointing the finger at OP and her family/ situation/ system I wonder if they've ever lived it rather than just theorise from a professional sideline?

I have no answers for you OP, just solidarity.

I guess you're a teacher/ lecturer if you're inflexible and have school.holidays off? Me too. I approached my HT and have arranged more flexibility- starting later some mornings for example- because it can be done if you have an understanding boss. I have a role which isn't subject based now - I take small groups and base my timetable around the kids' needs, so there's a greater degree of flexibility. Is there anything in your sector which is similar you could look out for to apply?

I think the GP and keep going back and back and back. Don’t let them fob you off.

As for the mess - I wouldn’t be getting him to ‘agree to clean it.‘ have a container with all the cleaning products. Every time he leaves shit smeared round the house he stops whatever he is doing and cleans the entire room. It’s dirty and not acceptable for you to clean it. He needs to know this. If it’s on clothes he does a full washing load to ensure all clothing is clean. He needs to take responsibility for cleaning it independently.

It’s very difficult. My son went through a spitting phase, it was awful. And it just makes you feel so defeated.

Also I know you can’t change your jobs but could you look at hiring a babysitter or sending him to a childminder? You could explain calmly to him (at a time when he isn’t being confronted about doing this behaviour) that at the moment he needs supervision and can’t be left alone. I think it needs cracking and part of that could be breaking the habit by not allowing him the space to do it.

I don't think understand how you can leave a child like this in his own for so long? I think it's really neglectful given his issues. He must be really emotionally distressed to do this yet you continue to leave him on his own? When you say you can't change jobs you mean you won't. What would you do if he was ill lying in a hospital bed for weeks or months? Still go to work everyday? Shocking.

Like it might simply be that he isn’t able to be left alone at the moment and this whole cycle could be broken by ensuring he is not unsupervised. I don’t want to be harsh about it, but I’d say a child who is smearing poo all over the house/their clothes/their body is not able to be left alone for hours each day.

I have just found this thread. Maybe it is too late for you to see my response @GloomyOrion . However your post is so close to my own circumstances that I just wanted to show solidarity. Firstly the thread is a good example as to why you might not post on MN unless you want to be called 'neglectful' by people who literally have no idea/experience of the issue. However there are also good suggestions. My DD does more or less the same as your son. She doesn't see it as a problem (the smell, the fact that it is poo, parcels of poo, brown nails..) we find it very hard. My DD is autistic (relatively high functioning). I don't want to be gloomy but for all those suggestions of GP, Psychiatrists etc - they do not have answers. It is a behaviour that you have to learn to manage and reduce the impact. I would seek a diagnosis because I am guessing this is one of a number of behaviours he is displaying. If you can then provide good support, reduce overall anxiety, sensory load then this difficult behaviour might improve.

I agree that this could be down to sensory needs.

Without any hint of punishment involved, I would genuinely get hm to do all the clearing up. Stand over him as he does it, to explain how to do it thoroughly, but don't do any of it yourself. Ever again. He needs to wipe every trace of it, every single day, and then clean any items he's used in the process - disinfect any cloths and rubber gloves etc. Make the process as tedious and time consuming as possible. He is old enough to take responsibility for the outcome of his actions. Be very clear this is not a punishment. Cleaning up mess we make in life is not punishment, it's just developing responsibility.