Suicidal DD (16)

[Noregrets78]

Wish I knew what to do, I feel helpless and useless. She's cut herself, taken overdoses, yesterday tried to strangle herself in the school toilets. She'd like to be admitted to a psych ward but everything I hear is that it's not a good plan. CAMHS involved, they're very clear with me that if she wants to take her life we can't stop her. Strangely I'm struggling to accept that... School knew she was struggling but I need to tell them what happened yesterday. But then they'll need to put something in place to keep her safe on the premises - accompanied toilet visits? Someone following her at all times? That will all just make her more down. What on earth to do.

@andsoitbeginsagain I don’t mind the questions. It’s very very lonely.
she took paracetamol. We went to A&E, albeit it was around 15 hours later before she told us. We had no idea about the first time until she said at A&E. They did bloods, ECG, etc. She was seen by the A&E doctor who spoke to someone over the phone (I assumed a psychiatrist) to ask if we were ok to go home. It was Friday eve and the rationale was that she wouldn’t be seen by the team on a weekend. They did say someone from them team’ would call. So we went home. We’ve found a private psychiatrist. No-one has been in touch with us from the hospital. To add to the mess, we stupidly told school so they had context for her lower grades etc and they’ve now excluded her. Then last night emailed her revised A level predictions which are lower than she needs. She’s so upset about school and we regret telling them. A&E haven’t. She’s upper sixth and the pressure is immense. We’re really not getting much support at all.

I don't understand how an actively suicidal child was discharged from a and e without ccat? It's protocol. Doesn't matter that it's the weekend, they are on call.

You should have had a safety plan and a follow up.

She's not 18 yet, is she?

How many tablets did she take? I ask this because mine took 6 ibuprofen and although, according to toxicology, for their weight, needed 3 times more to be toxic. The dose is dangerous as does not induce vomiting and could damage organs.

They wouldn't let my 15yr old out without CAMHS on call - it was 7pm on an Monday and we've been there before and someone came out at 3am.

To be fair, it took the ccat 5 days to put it in the system so that their Usual therapist could see (different counties).

You're right to get a private psychiatrist, sadly, the waiting list is too long for NHS.

We we lucky, we've been with CAMHS for 3 years.

Once your Dd turns 18 - the gp can prescribe meds though and you can get on the adult waiting list - but I think they should stay with child services til way past their 20's - an 18 year old is NOT an adult in my mind - especially one in education.

I just don't think there's much you can do - other than listen, be there, reassure and keep them safe. I tie myself up in knots working out what to do but ultimately, there's no easy answer.

I feel for you.

Funnily enough, just had a letter through regarding the hospital visit which says 'presented with suicide ideation' which isn't helpful - they tried to overdose (had no idea it wouldn't work and said 'would finish the job next time). That's not ideation, surely. People always seem to want to play it down, say it's teenage stuff, attention seeking - all of which may be true but there's something underlying all that. It's so invalidating for a young person to hear that.

And can actually exclude her? I'm sure they must be able to but I would challenge it?

If it's independent, I know they have different rules but education is statutory and unless they can prove she's unsafe in school?

Our school want the attendance but not at the price of Health and have been guided by me mostly, with the occasional letter from psychiatrist to back it up. Not at any cost to us, I might add. You're over a bloody barrel with this and it's not fair.

Yes! Very much over a barrel. She’s at an indie. They’re dreadful. Some of her actual teachers are fab but the leadership is dire. Can’t believe they’ve excluded her. I’m going to post on the mental health kids support thread as don’t want to derail OPs thread.

What’s CCAT?

Our psych said it was all very odd at A&E and not the accepted protocol.

Also not sure what CCAT is? My DD was always offered a talk with the Crisis team before she left A&E. recently when we've left hospital they've continued to home visit every day. A couple of years ago when she was struggling it wasn't offered, and I didn't know it was an option. Always feels like you gave yo know what to ask for - these things aren't always offered.
Derail away - it's good to all share. If it helps - last couple of weeks have been amazingly good. Trying to enjoy it, but I know from experience that the crash is horrible when you get your hopes up. One of these days the 'up' will continue and I'll finally be able to relax

@ComplexNeeds when does your dd turn 18? If it's soon, the lack of support might be because CAMHS don't want her in their system for her to then need to be transferred to adult services. Not that I think that's acceptable. I hope you have more joy with the private psych.

In a state school, your daughter's exclusion would be unlawful if it was done purely on mental health grounds. What reason have they given you? I would imagine you have grounds to challenge it, if you feel it's worth the time and energy and would benefit your daughter.

Thank you @Noregrets78 and @Rustnot
It’s impossible to know what’s ‘meant’ to happen. She was only seen by the A&E doctor in A&E and I know that as it said so on her badge. The doctor spoke to the on call team. But no one from that team saw DD.
She was 17 two months ago. So another year before 18.

Had to post quickly as DD hovering.
Pleased to hear your DD is currently ok OP. Mine had a good day yesterday, not so great Friday and seems inbetween today. Have to take every day as it comes.
Although private is ok for time being, we can’t afford this forever. She’s going to need longer term support and I don’t know how to get her on the Nhs waitlist.

I contacted my MP when CAMHS were being spectacularly unhelpful and he gave them a massive kick up the arse and I received a phone call and apology from the local director.
It’s worth a try.

@Friendsoftheearth

Can you pull her out of school? Empty the house of everything you could feel has the slightest risk attached to it, and have someone with her around the clock? For now, that is what I would do personally. We would even have her in bed with me.

I would set up a programme of running every day (with her)
walking
Buy a pet for her to take care of
Healthy foods
Meditation everyday
Breathing techniques
Talk and talk, try to uncover where the root is for her
Put flowers and plants in her room, ask her to water them
Take her wild swimming once a week
Ask her friends to come over every week for dinner, movie
Stop SM altogether.

I think you need to get the big guns out, and do something really really drastic. Even in the worst case she still found a way, you will know you have done everything possible.

I would not trust the school, any school to stay on top of this op.

I say this as someone in a similar place as a teen, do not give up and listen to CAHMS - there is ALWAYS much that can be done, always because she is your child, and you do what you need to.

She may not always stay like this, in my case it lifted naturally around 19 years old. So sorry op I can't imagine what you are going through. Make sure you get some support for yourself as well.

I agree with this type of approach at the moment

I would go one step further and just book a trip away, somewhere completely new that has a very sharply different culture. I know it’s hard in covid times but a bit of quarantine wouldn’t be the worst thing.

A total break from routine and whatever spirals she is in. A new perspective on life, broadened view of life outside what has possibly become an insular life. Somewhere totally different...africa, India, etc.

Children's Crisis Assessment and Treatment Team are otherwise known as CCATT.

I think it varies from county and area?

I definitely echo the post suggesting the program, pets, walks, flowers etc

We're having a terrible time - new territory - mine has become very stroppy, angry, short tempered and rude. All new characteristics and is VERY worrying.

Has gone out today with friend to meet another and I worry what they'll do. This friend is very supportive and a good kid but it's not their responsibility.

Sitting here wondering if I take away what they would say is the only thing they do that's normal (which is true) and keep them in until their therapy on weds and meds review Thursday.

I hate this and I am just lost.

@ComplexNeeds - if they're excluding dd - they should refund your daily fee?

@Noregrets78 so glad you've had a positive period - it's like reading my own thoughts when you say you're just waiting for the crash. It's awful.

So sorry you are going through this.

I don't have any DC but as a teenager I self harmed, was suicidal and my parents went through what you are going through.

For me counselling helped but the main thing that helped me turn my life around was the right medications. There are so many out there and it takes time and trial and error to find the perfect dose/type of medication.

For me the perfect combination was citalopram and quetiapine. Quetiapine has quite strong side effects that make you EXTREMELY tired, however these wear off after a few months.

Also just letting her know you are there to talk and that she is not a burden will really help her.

Be cautious when she gets old enough to start drinking alcohol as that will be a massive trigger (it was for me).

Also for me, starting university was one of the best things. A change of scene, independence, new friends, excitement. I know she is only 16 at the moment but just for information for the future.

@hamstersarse have you read the OPs update? She’s doing ok. I’m not sure a trip to India or Africa is the best option in these times. Affordability and the stress of cancellation, being stuck somewhere and/or ill?

@gingerbreadfox - do you mind me asking if you have BPD?

Mine is on Quetiapine and has just come off sertraline - which could be the anger.

They want to drink, smoke, take drugs and just be reckless - the only saving grace is that they do everything in moderation (unaware that a small slug of gin, diluted in lots of coke is not a lot - too much but not a lot).

Do I keep them in? Is that the answer or is it counter productive?

@Friendsoftheearth

but I do need to get stuff done!

What is exactly is more important this at the moment? You may say the world can't stop turning, no, but you can take drastic action if you wanted to.

I don't think it is smothering, it is actually called rather flippantly 'love bombing' and can be highly effective. We were in the same position with a good friend of ours, he was an adult. We had a rota with someone with him at all times, it took a lot of commitment and effort, but it is worth it to keep him safe - and we got there in the end. It will pass op, nothing lasts forever.

I guess you need to do what works for you, I personally wouldn't be sending her anywhere if she is suicidal, how on earth is she even coping with the school day? She sounds to be in a very bad place op.

That’s a really supportive comment!!!

@andsoitbeginsagain How old is she? It’s so hard to know what the ‘right’ thing is. I’d be inclined to let her do things she enjoys, especially if she’s with friends. Are the friends ok? I’m not sure about the drinking & drugs though.... that’s a slippery slope!
I have to try to avoid arguments and conflict. We had a LOT a few months ago and that made her worse. I had to let a lot of things go and not pull her up on attitude etc. I’ve no idea why she was so so very angry. I stopped fighting with her and bizarrely it’s stopped. I think it’s maybe about disappointment. If I have a go at her I think it makes her think I’m disappointed in her, don’t approve etc, thus reduces her self worth. If I let it go, I think she’s old enough to realise herself she’s been a brat and she doesn’t really mean it, and is then quite pleasant.
I know she’s got a lot of crap going on and maybe I just need to be the verbal punch bag. Albeit she’s being lovely at the moment.

@andsoitbeginsagain

I've been diagnosed with cyclothymia, which is a mild form of BPD. On 20mg of citalopram and 75mg of quetiapine (used to be on 200mg of quetiapine but have been reducing it slowly over the years as we hope to start TTC soon).

@ComplexNeeds it's not dealing with this new attitude that worries me, they can use me as a punch bag - it's this new behaviour. I'm so used to worrying about them and have spent so long trying to get them on an even keen, any change in behaviour is a worry.

@gingerbreadfox I've googled your condition and it doesn't seem 'mild' to me, you must have really been through the mill. We've tried citalopram (a few years back) and it made them worse. But I suppose each to their own, I think sertraline was good for them but they have come off because of the numb feeling - which the psychiatrist is supportive of.

Fluoxetine has been mentioned.

BPD was identified by a psychiatrist (with my dc suggesting they have it) whilst in the middle of an autism diagnosis from a paediatrician (which was halted because of the BPD suggestion) My child has fixated on this diagnosis and believes it is a lifelong sentence and cannot see past that. I know you can't diagnose this in children but it definitely fits much better than autism.

I just don't know how to be a parent any more - Nothing seems to be getter better.

@andsoitbeginsagain parenting is bloody hard at the best of times!!
DD is on fluoxetine and it does seem to be helping. Her g’mother is bipolar so I’ve been looking out for signs. Her psychiatrist doesn’t think it’s BPD and I’m inclined to agree as there doesn’t seem to be a cycle. If there’s is it changes daily!! Does your DD have the ‘up’ bit as well? It’s wrong to call it mania as I don’t think it’s necessarily that pronounced. In Granny it looks a bit like ADHD when she’s ‘up’. But when the meds are off then she’s up at 4am wrapping Xmas presents in July. She’s 84 so the treatment has been ‘interesting’!!

I thought bipolar was clear, longer periods of 'mania' and down times and BPD was constant ups and downs (sometimes hourly)?

I don't even know if it's helpful to have a label sometimes? But I know my child feels happier with a label - almost wears it like an badge to protect them from any judgement or questions?

@ComplexNeeds is it your parent that you've grown up with who has bipolar?

I spent 18 years with a mentally Ill parent - not sure it makes me better prepared or not?

No it’s my husbands mother. I thought BPD was short for Bipolar Disorder - so the same thing! Hadn’t realised they were different. It’s all very confusing.