So it seems I make them miserable and need to go

[iwonderwhat]

Following on from a post nearly three weeks ago, my DS has seemed fine but we are progressing with hopefully getting CAMHS involved [the school is being very supportive even though they see a happy and "normal" child in that setting] and I'm open to the fact that DS and, of course, the family need help. Meanwhile, home life (DH, DS2 and myself) has been fine ... in fact pretty good.

A week after DS2 went to A&E with suicidal thoughts, DS1 (23) sent me a vile email out of the blue basically telling me to stay out of his life and that I make the family miserable. The message happened to arrive at the end of a phone call with school so DH was with me as I read it; I was totally shocked and devastated and couldn't quite understand what I was reading. DH - a man of very few words and not comfortable discussing anyone's emotions - couldn't believe what DS1 had written and simply told me to ignore it and stated it was all "ridiculous". Needless to say, I've been very upset by it but have respected DS1's wishes and made no contact for the past 12 days.

After everything being perfectly OK here all day today, I was just chatting with DS2 to see how he has felt this week and this conversation ended with him (somewhat reluctantly) saying that, yes, life probably would be better for the family if I wasn't around.

DH can see I'm upset and knows why but just says "Don't be silly, of course we want you around".

I feel like a total waste of space and I'm clearly worse than useless. I have been "low" before [mainly due to exhaustion and keeping all the balls in the air as DH does very little parenting or running the home etc] but I've never felt as bad as I do now. The writing's on the wall, isn't it, and I do have to leave. I can't just finish it once and for all because my poor 82-year old mother wouldn't be able to cope with my suicide. Please tell me how I do this without wrecking even more lives.

Also, if I go we need to actually discuss things and agree the best way forward - therein lies the first hurdle.

Yes. Sit them down, and discuss when it is likely that you are going to move out. It will take a few weeks to find somewhere suitable. They will need to spend the intermediate time sorting themselves out whilst you pack up your stuff and find somewhere, and see solicitors. Stop doing all their shit, and focus on yourself.

No matter what happens, stay calm and leave them afterwards to start making their plans of how they are going to be independent.

You can't go on like this - you need a plan.

Sounds like DS2 is repeating DS1 line. Sorry but I dint know the back story here.

Is anyone in your house happy? If you separate dh will be able to feed himself and push a hoover round now and again. You don't need to stay there to be a skivvy.

However, how are you going to fund yourself? If I were you I'd start looking at going back to work asap.

I second GiltterGlue’s thoughts.

Also could you ask your DSs what exactly it is about you that makes them miserable?

We do have some happy times but it's usually when I instigate something. DH and I rub along peacefully enough most of the time. DS2 gets at him a lot: I do have some sympathy for the reasons and tell him so but "correct" the way he speaks to DH. This has been going on for many years.

DS2 is complex. He and I are also pretty close but he can be very stubborn and it sometimes feels as if he gets a kick out of stirring up trouble, particularly with DH [presumably to get a reaction].

I agree that DS1 has influenced DS2 greatly especially recently. I think DS2 wants the "freedom" that DS1 has although I explain that it's not suitable at his age; however I reassure him that he's growing up fast and that he has age-appropriate independence. Oddly, DS2 also worries about the future a lot and wonders how he would cope as an adult. I do a lot of gentle reassuring; we hug, he seems fine.

You don't know my DH and the assumption that he can feed himself is by no means a given! OK, at the end of the day, he could survive but I cannot possibly leave him to bring up DS2 ... and DH agrees.

You don't know my DH and the assumption that he can feed himself is by no means a given!

If god forbid anything did happen to you - do you mean your child would starve to death? Because most adults can cook, they just choose not to - particularly if someone else is doing it for them.

Sounds like they might have been 'spoilt'? A clean house kept in order sounds like heaven! My parents didn't give two hoots about cleanliness and even as a child I had to do all the cleaning, shopping and errands as my mum was agrophobic and dad was too busy to do anything as meaningless as housework!
Ignore what your DS1 and DS2 are saying. They had it easy!

When DS1 was a teen he hated me.
Blamed me for everything.
His dad is lovely but lives in a world of his own so it was always me being the bad guy, the nag, the rule maker.

I undoubtedly made mistakes but I don't think objecting to dirty crockery being put back in the cupboard was unreasonable. But seriously I did make mistakes and I won't be repeating them
DS1 moved out very young. He was convinced that if I wasn't around his life would be great.

He is 24 and doesn't hate me. He is sweet and respectful and uses the things I taught him to keep his home running ok.
He has matured. He has stopped blaming me.

I hope that can happen for you too. You, like me, are probably doing a few things that could be done differently but you don't sound abusive or controlling.

Perhaps your boys need to grow up a bit before they can appreciate it.
It may suit your DP to be the 'good' parent. It doesn't sound like he is doing enough to back you up.

and DH agrees

Of course he does!

He doesn't want his easy life where he is the easy going dad changed!
He gets the perks of parenthood without any of the work.

’I was just chatting with DS2 to see how he has felt this week and this conversation ended with him (somewhat reluctantly) saying that, yes, life probably would be better for the family if I wasn't around.’

I’m sorry OP but I just keep thinking about this ^
And the fact your DS1 wants to go nc with you.
...And think there has to be a reason.

I really feel for you. I’m currently in a similar nightmare xx

I'm astonished that so many people are telling OP categorically that she is in the right here. No one has any possible way of evaluating that from a perspective written only by one side. Every single emotionally abusive parent would claim to be the rational one faced by a bewilderingly unprovoked attack from their angry adult child. It's possible that DS2 is just parroting DS1, it's possible that they both feel the same for very good reason. None of us can conceivably know.

TERF: I don't think either one would starve to death; as I said, DH would survive [probably on unbuttered bread - oh, and plenty of wine, but that's another story] and so would DS but no, DH does not cook. If I want him to spin the laundry and hang it up, I literally have to show him three times and write it down; he doesn't know how to use the central heating, he never checks the tyre pressure on the car, he can't programme anything - I could go on. I think DS2 is better equipped already and, trust me, he still has a lot to learn!

Smurf: Undoubtedly, the DSs have had it easy but I have taught them over many years how to do things, the easiest way and the reasons why. DS1 is sticking two fingers up at me.

MrsDV: DS1 and I have always had a really harmonious relationship until very recently and he didn't "not get on" with his dad, it was just DH never did anything with him. Within the last few years, DS1 has, on a number of occasions, told his dad in no uncertain terms that he wasn't there for him as he grew up. I wasn't totally surprised at his outbursts - having been away at uni I think he suddenly realised what other dads do. The shocking part is the horrible way he has now turned on me.

You're spot on with saying DH wants -and has - an easy life. I'm happy for him to have that but I've asked - even begged - for support on the parenting front. That is all I ask of him and he won't/can't do it. With DS1 I coped fine because he responded as expected and DH was working a lot. But DS2 is a very different personality and DH has been at home all his life - so "there" but disengaged. DS2 has also had a tricky life and is very up and down emotionally ... unlike DH who gives absolutely nothing away.

TuTru: I'm sorry you're also going through difficult times.

MC: You have a valid point - of course none of you can possibly know what I'm really like. All I can say is that I know I'm not perfect but I also know I've done my best in a loving, caring, non-controlling way. That's why I feel so low - I'm left feeling that my best is not good enough. However, that doesn't tally with what other people say about me, including family therapists a few years ago. Of course I have aspect of my character that leave room for improvement and I've worked, and continue to, work on them. DH on the other hand has stuck his head in the sand for all of DS2's life and makes no attempt to do anything differently.

Listen to your DS I think now not only has he realised his dad was useless but that you enabled him to be - you still are. That is why he is angry

Your ds2 is perhaps then holding out that his dad will step up

I’m sure you have only scratched the surface as to how bad it’s been with their Dad

Your husband is displaying 'learned helplessness'. There is no need for him to learn how to do things, because if he flails about for long enough, you'll just do it. He has you trained.

If he has no-one to do things for him, he will either pay a cleaner or do it himself. He's not 6.

You keep showing consideration towards him and get nothing back. You had a plan to leave before but because he didn't like it, you stayed. He doesn't get to decide what he likes or not, resurrect that plan and follow it through.

OP I think you need to get some therapy by yourself if DH won’t engage. Psychodynamic therapy it a useful half waybjouse between councelling and full on (3 times a week for years) psychotherapy.

I ha darling 17 sessions of this last year and although my position was relatively mild in comparison to yours it a helped me immeasurably to put my needs in perspective, to reframe some of my own guilt and issues as a parent. It’s made me feel less ‘responsible’ for the details of my family’s life- for instance my DP has ADHD and wa dimly recently diagnosed - before therapy and diagnosis I took on much of the mental and physical organisation of mine and his lives and it took up a lot of my head and made me very anxious. In contrast now I don’t allow headspace for keeping tabs of DPs possessions - if he asks where his keys are I happily tell him he must find them himself - I won’t help him find them and stop what I’m doing. I still take the lions share of homemorgamisatiom but we have really good boundaries in place.

This is to do we me getting help to help myself and be more ‘selfish’ and look after my own mental health. I sometimes even say ‘nope, I’m not going to talk/think about that now, I can’t do anything about it and it doesn’t deserve rental space in my head’

DH was working a lot

He manages to work but not learn how to do 'house' things. This is not a coincidence!

Come on OP - he is taking the piss out of you.

OP with respect you do sound a bit of a martyr. Why have you never gone back to work? Is your DH the sole breadwinner? How would you manage for money if you split up?
Are you guilty of making your boys as dependent on you as your husband? At 23 lots of men have left home and are living totally independently.
To be honest, it doesn't sound like a healthy dynamic. Do you not think you would feel emotionally stronger if you had a job? Might the men in your life be more respectful if you were busier. Mention has been made by one of them that you are controlling. If you are a SAHP to adult sons is there a danger that you are too wrapped up in their lives? It is sometimes easier to cope with domestic issues if you have a life outside the family. Do think hard about what your sons have said to you.
You don't want to end up as a manipulative MIL with too much time on your hands. Take steps now to get a job and have your own friends so that you are not controlling your sons' lives for something to do.

I hear you, Quartz, Weezol and TERF and accept what you say. You are right and I've covered for DH and allowed him to get away with too much for too long. Whenever I've stood up for myself and asked/told him to play his part, I've simply been told that I'm unreasonable and expect too much.

Catgot: I don't know anything about psychodynamic therapy but am about to google. I'm so programmed to be the do-er and fixer - and find it so hard to be "selfish" - that I absolutely need support to change my approach.

Programmed to be a 'doer and fixer' might be interpreted as controlling by many people. Again, you need to get a life (job) outside your family and let them run their own lives.
If you don't work and your husband is hopeless and 'ageing rapidly', where does the money come from?

mrsm: Trust me, I'm busy with a variety of things I undertake that are not centred on the home or family. I don't go out to work because (a) financially I don't need to, and (b) I've more than enough to keep me occupied.

DS2 (13) is still at school but I give him plenty of space and am trying to ensure that he doesn't follow his father's example.

I leave DS1 - who lives independently and is working/earning a living - to get on with whatever he is doing. However, I'm here if he needs me; he knows that and has come to me a few times in the last year or so to talk things through - I've given my advice/opinion and left him to make up his own mind which he's done.

I have a close group of friends but I don't want to burden them with all this. They've formed their opinion of each one of us and, in general, they say they'd support me if I moved out but can quite understand why I find it so hard to do so: mostly for DS2's sake.

In many ways it sounds like you are becoming the family scapegoat. I think it is maybe time to put your foot down and think about yourself. Your ds1 has his own place so he has absolutely no say in where you live. I think that rather than be heartbroken you should be clear that you are unhappy and angry about the nasty message and that you are not prepared to be spoken to in this way. Stand up for yourself. Why should you leave your home? Encourage your ds2 to access counselling, support him but do not allow the family to use you as the scapegoat.

Thank you, cansu. We are on track (at last) to getting DS2 professional help and I did arrange a long-term mentor/counsellor who helped but that ended about 9 months ago because DS2 said he didn't need it any more.

I resisting telling DS1 what I thought of his message or offering to sit down and discuss his vindictiveness but I sensed it would only inflame the situation especially as he told me not to contact him. I'm hoping that giving him time and space will allow him to reflect on his outburst. For once, DH showed me a bit of moral support, stating that he's "very cross" with DS1 who he reckons is talking a load of nonsense.

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are gaslighted by your husband and your oldest has picked up some of his traits.

uk.businessinsider.com/what-is-gaslighting-2017-7