Is 4 too young to stop using a harness?

[Fizxy]

Just wondering when everyone stopped using a 5 point harness? Our DD has just turned 4 and is 18kg so has reached the limit for her current car seat. When we’ve been looking into the next stage car seat the vast majority don’t have a 5 point harness. Someone in a shop told us this is to do with their hip development and it’s not safe once they turn 4 and they’re safer with just a seatbelt? Not sure how accurate this is though because everything I’ve read online seems quite mixed!

our dilemma is that we just don’t trust that she will stay sat in her seat with just a seatbelt on. Most of the time she’s fine, but we recently had a bit of drama from her on a long trip where she was screaming ‘get me out of here’ on repeat for a good 5 minutes 🙄. If she wasn’t harnessed in she would have 100% climbed out. 4 seems so tiny still to just have a seatbelt on. So we’ve seen some car seats with the extended harness upto 25kg (joie bold is preference) but now we’re doubting if this is the best/safest option? Or should we just go with the high back booster option and have a stern word about staying in our seat and hope for the best?

any advice appreciated :)

a quick google search should find a checklist of things a 4-year old should already do to know they are ready for the next stage seat. One of them is that when they are asleep they keep their head back and central. There is a few good seats out there that are harness for longer. Tbh my opinion is to keep rear facing longer, harness longer, the safer your children can be the better. There is no rush to grow them up.

Thanks @ConfusingRelationshipthat’s our thoughts - we want to keep her as safe as possible it just feels a little confusing when most car seats don’t have harness's at this stage and then the person in the shop telling us it’s safer to have just a seatbelt? We agree and think 4 is still too young

My son has always been in the 99th percentile for height, he’s absolutely massive. When he reached the height limit for the 5 point harness seats (105cm) he was 2.5. I looked at the larger harness seats, but honestly affordability was an issue. So he’s been in a booster seat with a seatbelt since he turned 3. I can trust him to sit still though which does make a difference and he has never tried to wriggle out or unclip the seatbelt when the car is moving. I suppose you would just have to stop the car wherever you are if she did that, and like you say have a very stern word.

I think when we were looking there was the thought that a child should be rear facing as long as possible, but when turned forward a standard seatbelt was better.

At 4 I’d definitely be looking at a good HBB, probably one with a crotch strap to stop “submarining”.

Im pretty sure we had our (massive) son in a HBB from maybe 3.5, but he always sat sensibly and this was during Covid when you didn’t drive around much!

There are specilist seats with harnesses designed for up to 25kg or 36kg. I believe many of them are rear facing though.

Generally 4yos are considered mature enough for seatbelts

Double post

Hmm maybe we do just look at a decent high back booster. We’re between the Axkid nextkid or the Joie bold (with option to use harness up to 25kg). My worry is we go for the axkid and she realises she can get out and then we’ll end up having to buy another one. Most of the time she will absolutely just sit there no issues but she’s still a 4 year old with some big emotions at times 😅. I don’t know, maybe she wouldn’t try and get out if the general consensus is at 4 they are ok with just a seatbelt?

Personally my children are rear facing until at least 5 years old. Easy with my eldest who is low centiles. More tricky with my youngest who is high centiles. No hbb until at least 5 and no FF harness ever. There are quite a few extended rear facing seats available to get you to 25 or 36kg.

Just turned 4 is quite young to be using the 3 point belt. I’d definitely be looking to harness for longer. She’d be safest rear facing. How tall is she?

So the car seat she’s in at the moment is the joie spin 360 so she can still rear face. She’s 102cm (ish) so height wise she’s ok until 105cm but she is 18kg so she’s reached the max weight limit. So we could look at getting another rear facing one but it feels like quite a big expense for us to then have to get another one in maybe a year or so’s time?

@Esssa out of interest why no FF harness?

@Fizxy because the body is restrained but the head isn't. If the pelvis isn't formed enough to cope with a seatbelt then I doubt the spine with a child's proportionately large head is going to withstand an accident. If you got an ERF car seat you don't have to swap at 5 years old, you can max that out too before going to a hbb. The britax romer Safeway m is less than £200 online and will last till 125cm 36kg.

Ok, so she’s only just over the minimum height for using the 3 point belt in a high back booster. I’d definitely look to continue using a harnessed seat and obviously you’ll need to organise one as soon as possible as she has outgrown the harness on your current one.
If you can manage to get hold of an Axkid Minikid 2, then that will keep her rear facing in a harness for a good couple of years, after which she’d be ready for the 3 point belt with a HBB. These have been discontinued so you might struggle to find stock, but they are still a great seat for around £215. The Britax seat mentioned above is quite big and has a short seat shell, so may not last as long, but another good budget option. There are more expensive ERF seats, but you’re looking at £400 plus, which I appreciate is a lot if you’re only getting a couple of years from it, unless you have a younger child which you can pass it down to.
I think there are better FF harness options than the Joie Bold. I believe the new Bold is an R129 seat, so the harness would be outgrown at 105cm, unless you can find an old R44 model.
@bertiebottswill hopefully be able to offer some more advice about FF with a harness.

Thanks @Esssaand @FamilyAreEverythingit feels like such a minefield!!

I can see some axkid minikid 2 available on a website called little peas? Never heard of it before but looks genuine 😂 and they’re £220. We do have a younger child that we can pass down to but we were hoping ideally to find one which will last her until she no longer needs a car/booster seat anymore so our younger kid will also need a new seat in about 2.5 years too.

That’s a good point about the joie bold - I was a bit confused about why on some sites it made a point of saying the harness was ‘bonus extended protection’ and suitable up to 25kg and some others it said to switch to the booster seat with belt at 18kg but that would explain it. It does look like on the Joie website you can still buy the one which is suitable upto 25kg but any suggestions on any better seats FF with a harness would be great!

Little peas are reputable I believe.

There are some Joie forward facing seats that still have a 5 point harness up to 25kg and you can move to a seatbelt after that. Our DD is 5, 110cm and 20kg and we still use the harness with her.

Does the Cybex range do anything suitable? Our son had a Cybex Pallas 2 which is front facing but has a bump bar for extra protection that you can remove when they are older. So they start after the baby seat around 1 with the bump bar to about 5/6 and then no bump bar till 11 or 12. I'm not too sure how these seats are viewed now though as I don't think rear facing post a baby seat was that much of a thing 11 years ago. The bump bar was seen as a good safety feature for a child who would obviously be forward facing, rather than being good option instead of a rear facing seat, if that makes sense.

Perhaps already posted but we have the Axkid mini and our DS (90th centile for height) used it comfortably until he was 6.5yo. He would have fitted in it longer but our DD had outgrown the joie seat you have. 4.5yo DD is now in the Axkid and I’ll keep her in it until 6 or 7.

Please ignore all the people who will come on and say their 3yo is too big to rear face - I can guarantee you they weren’t bigger than my tall 6.5yo!

ETA: if you’ve got a younger child, they can go in the Joie until 4 and then move into the Axkid, so the Axkid could last 4-5 years across the 2 kids (exactly what we did). DC1 is now in a HBB at 7.

If you're looking at the joie bold, you'd have to get the old model (which I believe is discontinued) as the new one has a strict height limit of 105cm.
Safest would be to rear face in a 25kg/36kg seat with a height limit of 125cm. I think the axkid mini kid 4 has the best back height limit so longest lasting (but this this has been recently replaced with the modukid?)

Think this has a height limit of 105cm too so no better than her joie.

All forward facing seats are 105cm (except old joie bold) so would have to be rear facing.

My four year old (18kg and tall) is in a Silver Cross Balance i-Size which grows to fit them up to 12. It has a five point harness. They’re on sale on the Silver Cross website at the moment.

No the Cybex Pallas 2 has a height limit of 150cms. I'm pretty sure there are other forward facing seats with a much larger height limit than 105cm, because right back when our lad was growing out of his baby seat, the advice was they could forward face from around 1, but had to be in a seat till around 12, so lots of seats were designed forward facing for up to 12 year olds.

Not with the harness. It most likely will be with the seatbelt after 18kg or 105cm depending on the regulations. The new regulations give a height limit aswell as a weight limit so most harnesses/sheilds are outgrown at 105cm, and then will be using the seatbelt as a hbb.
Also car seats usually expire before 12 years so its a bit unrealistic to have one seat last this long.

The Minikid 2 would be a great option then, as you’ll get a couple of years from it whilst your youngest goes in the Joie. Then you can move your eldest into a HBB and your youngest into the Minikid. Generally multistage seats are compromising somewhere, so it’s generally better to get a dedicated HBB when the time comes.

Little peas are a genuine company I believe, although I’ve no personal experience using them.

@PlantsAndSpanielsthe Cybex Pallas is an i-Size seat and the impact shield is outgrown at 105cm or 21kg, whichever comes first.

@TheBirdintheCavethe Silver Cross seat you have is also an i-Size seat so the harness is outgrown at 105cm or 21kg, whichever comes first.

@FamilyAreEverythingIt does?? Aww man, my son is 110cm 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️ Seems I’ll need to address this now as well 😂

Best practise is rear facing until 25kg (or 36kg) if high centiles and then you can go straight into a HBB with seatbelt. 18kg seats are a bit of a false economy as generally don’t last until a safe high backed booster age.