Rear-facing car seats to 18kg in Britain Campaign!!!

[justforinfo]

Hey guys!

I am a child seat fitter at a large child seat supplying store (I don't think i'd be allowed to say which one!) and I have recently read about rear-facing seats to the age of 4 and after doing some intense research have found that the offer optimum safety for children. They are the norm in Scandinavian countries where child fatalities in crashes are near enough 0 every year. Britax, Graco etc all stress on the websites for scandinavian countries that children should be rear-facing untill they are about 4 years of age but there is no mention of this anywhere on the British sites. The British medical journal stresses that rear-ward facing is the safest option. So why are these seats not widely known about? Why are they not in big stores like the one I work in? Apparently it's because British parents don't want them. So are they trying to say British parents don't value their children's lives? The customers i've spoken to about these rearward facing seats had never heard of them and were shocked they were not being given information that would potentially save their child's life! These seats were not even mentioned in ANY of my training.

It's only through my own personal research I do to make sure i'm offering the best and safest options to parents did I find out about them!

I am currently trying to raise awareness of these seats and to get some at least on display in the company I work for. At the minute this is pretty single-handed!

I'd love to know what your views are on the seats and if you would like the option to have a seat that is 5 times safer?

I'd need alot of support to make any changes to what is supplied in store, but if parents are contacting big chains that supply child seats and asking why they are not being offered these seats it will change! Consumer pressure works wonders and I am at a loss to see how "health and safety Britain" has missed this!

I may just be talking out my backside and parents may be perfectly happy with the traditional seat but i'd appreciate the feedback all the same. Please take a moment to look at this website and watch the crash tests. www.rearfacing.co.uk

Sorry about the essay!
Thanks!

Scare tactics? What about car seats with ISOfix being sold on the safety aspects - or side impact protection etc. Surely you don't need to say "OMG INTERNAL DECAPITATION!!!11!1!!" to sell these seats.

I like the US model where infant seats go up to 6 months to a year depending on the size of your baby and then their second stage are all convertible rear or forward facing. So the RF stage is much longer and if you already have the seat you might as well keep them RF. Whereas ours where when they grow out of the infant carrier there are one or two convertible seats on the market, the others you have to choose from are either RF, which will probably be thought of as weird as nobody else uses them, and it's a lot of hassle and expense to get hold of one, or FF, cheaper, everyone you know uses one and you can just drive to halfords and buy one off the shelf and get it fitted right there by an expert. It's a no brainer which one most people choose!

We did lots of research when we decided to replace the group 0 rf seat for DD at Christmas. In the end we travelled over 100 miles to have the BeSafe fitted in our Honda Civic - the front passenger seat has to go right back to make it secure, but this isn't an issue. However, it will be a problem if we need to get a second one once DC2 comes along as I am too short to have the driver's seat pushed back. Guess we'll approach that one at the time. I love the BeSafe and DD seems to really like it too as it's higher up so she can see out the window. My parents did seem a bit bemused that we'd travel so far and spend so much for it though - guess they come from a generation that didn't need to think about these things though!

Definitely agree that more places should stock them though and really glad to hear of your efforts to get this changed. Good luck with your campaign - it's great that someone is trying to make a difference from the inside out.

Spinaltap check out graco duologic. We gave besafe in a Mazda 6 and it works fine but hubbie has an astra and needed a more compact seat so found the duologic to fit much better and allow a front passenger.
Friends also manage duologic in a peugot 206 and have enough leg space for a front passenger. Britax 2 way also much smaller.

I hope that helps.

Thanks onetwothreefourfive and truthsweet, I'll definitely look into those. When I tried the Besafe the man fitting it pretty much said that I'd have the same problem with any RF seat, so it's good to hear that it's not the case.

As others have said, it's such a shame most of us have to travel so far to try these seats out.

We have both daughters in rear facing seats (britax two way). I've linked to rearfacing.co.uk here several times as I can't understand why rearfacing isn't the norm here.(We have friends in Sweden,which is how we knew about them). My eldest dd is 6,the younger is 3,nearly 4 but they both still fit the weight ratio so they are both still rearfacing.Probably dd1 will have to go forward facing by the time she is seven,as although she is very light,she will be too tall.

BertieBotts, That was pretty much my point, you don't need to scare customers just as much as you don't have to hard sell! My motto is sales through service and i'm sure these seats would sell if staff advised customers of the benefits of rear facing and to research different seats. (Incidently I always advise my customers to research the seats I recommend before they buy) Isofix is safer than seat belt FF seats and there's much less chance of them being fitted incorrectly, but as they all have the same 5 point harness the damage to the child's internal organs, spine and neck will be pretty similar i'd have thought??? (I have no evidence of this so may be talking out my backside)

www.causes.com/causes/594605-save-your-child-s-life-support-rear-facing-car-seats-for-children-up-to-age-4?m=ba7666a6

I've posted this link guys, it's a cause i'm running on facebook

justfor joined the fb cause, will also be contacting my local Mothercare & Halfords in S Wales.

Can rf seats be used in the front? And if so, are they as safe?
My DS is 4mo (but he's a big and tall boy!) so I'm researching now for my stage 1 seat.

shmoz I couldn't say if they can be used in the front as i've had zero training on grp1 RF seats, however the line on FF seats is they can go in the front as long as the airbag is switched off. However I always refuse to fit a child seat in the front seat of a vehicle as it's quite dangerous.

If you do get a rf g1 seat you can get the babysafe mirrors for the headrest so you can still glance in the rearview and see that he's ok :)

With ISOfix the only advantage on safety is that they can't be fitted incorrectly. Incorrectly fitted seats are the cause of a lot of car-related injuries, I believe.

Also on airbags - group 0 seats can't go in the front with an airbag. They can if the airbag is disabled, but it's not recommended. FF group 1 seats can go in the front even if there is an airbag but it's recommended that you disable it if possible.

I expect the RF group 1 seats would have info in their manuals if you can download them from the websites.

I'm not allowed to say they "can't" be fitted incorrectly :P the only incorrect fitting i've seen is people not putting the support leg down if there is one, not using the top tether if needed and using the leg where there is underfloor storage. I wasn't aware that you can put ff in the front seat with the airbag still active? At the store where I work we won't put any seat in the front if there's an active airbag!

Here: Laws

The law (if following to the letter) states that a rear facing child seat for a child under the age of 3 years must not be in the front seat with an active airbag. There are no laws which cover forward facing seats.

This from the same site (it's a RoSPA site, BTW) - guidance on putting any seats in the front. It's very clear about RF seats but doesn't mention airbags when talking about FF seats.

But I'd think from the first link that a RF group 1 seat can not legally be used with active airbag in the front.

Justforinfo- can I just say huge well done on your campaign, and keep going :) You are definitely not alone, and those parents will totally appreciate your honest advice. Like many of the mums on here, I regularly ask in the major stores, just to try and make my point, but like you say, I think I'll now write to them. I've even spoken to parents outside of stores who are having forward facing seats fitted in their cars, just to encourage them to consider rearfacing seats :) !!!!!

keep up the good work everyone :)

I have just joined the facebook campaign but notice that the photo used has a RF seat next to (I think) a stage 1 FF seat, might be best to change that!
Good luck with your campaign

I hadn't thought about Rf seats and assumed FF was the only possiblility. However, I remember reading that the airforce always had rear facing seats in their planes as it was safer and since then I always try to sit in rear facing seats on trains just in case! I guess the same principle carries through to child car seats.

Let's hope retailers take note.

Mobi needs the same space as Besafe, when the Besafe is fitted in upright mode. You don´t have to meassure the Mobi in recline mode as it won´t need more room in recline position.

Besafe needs 96-100 cm in recline position

This is why the Besafe only sells in very low numbers in Sweden. It is not the price that makes it sell in low numbers there. it is the space it needs.

Other than that: Exceptionally good seat!!!!!!!

Lena

Lena

Front seat position is VERY safe for RF seats for as long as you can deactivate the airbag there.

The reason that this position is so safe for RF seats is that they can be supported by dash. Dash is a rigid construction in the car. the seats can move as little as app 1 cm in a crash. Front seats also leave better legroom for the child and often also better legroom for other passengers.

Furthermore the front of the car has been optimized for safety - not counting in airbags.

Lena

Allright, just got in after having meassured the Besafe izi Kid X1 isofix and the Akta Grao Belogic.

Please note that meassurement differ from one car to the next. While the Besafe seat needs somewhat more room, it doesn not equal discomfort for the adults in front of it. People are very different, therefore spacerequirements and comfort level for each individual are different. I have installed Besafe seats in small cars like Fiat Punto. It didn´t give me enough legroom and comfort in this car. The clients were happy with it. So there you have it.

here are the meassurements from a Peugeot 307 Estate:
Front seat height can be adjusted in this. car

Top meassurements from headrest to headrest:

Besafe (0-18 kg)
reclined: 93 cm = app 38"
Upright position: 90 cm = app 36½"

Akta Graco Belogic (9-25 kg)
Reclined: 81 cm = 32"
Upright: 81 cm

The Belogic top is curved. The Besafe isn´t.

Lena

shufflebum Thank you for joining the campaing and thank you for pointing out about the photo!!! I was wondering if maybe it would be more beneficial to the cause to do a "like" page also?

carseatcrazy Thank you! I'm having to sneakily tell customers about them outside the store as there always seems to be a collegue near me when i'm advising on child seats now (coincidence? I think not!)

Thanks to everyone for your comments and support, if anyone has anything they'd like to see the cause doing please say! I'm contacting local and national papers this week and designing some flyers for local nurseries and baby centres. I'm also visiting other stores that stock child seats to get addresses for HO where letters can be sent, which I will post on here and on facebook.

If anyone is interested in taking the flyers to local baby centres/nurseries please say and I think I should be able to inbox them.

But how do you move them from family car to another? We used to give other children a lift to nursery, too. Almost impossible if you have such awkward seats (I gather they are awkward to put in and out...?)

So that would be one more car on the road than is necessary, just because car seats can't be transferred.

Abr1de The parents on here can probably give you better advice on how moveable they are, however I watched an installation video and it really didn't look too difficult (I watched the installation of the Maxi cosi Mobi)

You'll obviously have to watch out for the usual things of buckle crunch and making sure the seat hasn't got excessive movement but you need to keep an eye on that for FF seats anyway!

All in all with the extra safety offered, the extra 5 mins it may take fitting is well worth it! You Tube has got quite a few installation videos. Also if you phone the manufacturer of the seat you can tell them the cars you will be fitting the seat into and they'll tell you if it'll fit! :)

Sunday Times InGear (car) supplement has a page 4 article on RF seats this weekend (17 Apr) and how they are so rare in the UK.
I read it then came on MN to see what the score was! I had no idea that RF seats even existed after Group 0. We are looking at the next car seat for DS and would have just gone for a FF seat thinking that was the only option.

Now will be saving up for a RF - cannot believe that there is not more info on Mumsnet about them. You'd think this would be on the main pages not just the Talk sections?

Bump

Just joined the facebook campaign. With Britax now featuring a rf seat on their website, dare I hope that times are changing?

Can anyone link to the facebook site?