Bullying by a child with SEN

[Justwhy2]

My child is experiencing issues in primary school - hitting, kicking, name calling, spreading rumours. In my view it is bullying. The child involved has special educational needs, and a full time classroom assistant.

The school have taken measures to increase supervision of the other child, however they have not imposed any consequences for the incidents that have happened to date. They are also now saying that it is "more 2 sided than I realise," however they have not provided me with any evidence of this. I suspect they are going on what the other child's parents are saying, however the other child has been exposed telling lies on at least 2 occasions.

I understand the complexities of the situation, however surely hitting and kicking can't be ignored just because a child has special educational needs? My child is very aware that if they were to behave this way in school there would be consequences?

It is leaving my child feeling very unsupported. I suppose my question is am I being unreasonable to call this bullying? Has anyone been in this situation, or worked in a school where this has happened, and can advise me on what would be reasonable action from the school in the circumstances?

Because you have stated the point being that your child needs to see these consequences being meted out. I am pointing out that this is unhelpful all round and a very old fashioned attitude to behaviour when you have complex sen involved. Of course it would be appropriate in many scenarios but not this one. I’m not sure I understand the situation - why is your child being excluded if they are the one having all of this perpetrated on them?

you have also implied you know this child and thus know it is being manipulative which is a common thread amongst parents looking to justify their stance. You cannot possibly know this child’s motivations. The fight their parent will have had to go through to secure 1-2-1 provision is huge and I can promise you, you cannot possibly understand the complex needs of the child who has this provision - whatever you think. The absolute intolerable stress of attending school for a child with this level of need (for example a pda profile of autism - I’m making assumptions - it could be one of many things) is acute. Using traditional discipline is just not going to be helpful or received by the other child in any meaningful way. I’m sure your child is not having a great time either but their experiences are not the same thing.

There is a lot I won't go into on here because it would simply be outing, including the extent of my knowledge of the other child. For a start I am not in England, the system where I am is a little different, with 1-1s being fairly readily available. Your assumptions are typical of soneone with "expert" views, entirely unwilling to think beyond your own experiences. Easier to just dismiss people who don't agree as old fashioned. I would welcome any helpful advice if you have any, rather than judgement and assumptions.

I can't get over "not having a great time either". My child, who we had to send for professional help, was diagnosed with something similar to PTSD. It just makes me want to cry all over again at the "intolerable stress" he experienced at six.

I’m totally willing to see outside my own experiences. I work with and in peer reviewed research for a start so cannot afford to be blinkered. I’m not sure why you have put “expert” in quotation marks?

That is heartbreaking. I hope he is doing better now.

Yes it is bullying and no, the fact the bully has SEN is neither here nor there. Do not allow the Head to use the SEN as an excuse. Do not even mention it in any meetings, talk about your child being kept safe, your child being supported etc Always put the onus on the Head. It is her job to sort this out and keep your child safe,

@Justwhy2 thank you. I think so but it was a long and expensive journey and there are still things that happen now that are consequences of that experience.

I spent so long trying to do the right thing by borrowing books from the library about why he might be being bitten and encouraging him to see the other child's perspective that I failed to see my baby in front of me wondering why his mother and his teachers were defending someone else hurting him. I was advocating for the wrong child. Breaks my heart to look back on myself.

Then I apologise - the impact on your child has been horrendous. I don’t understand why you can’t apply the same understanding to children who (for some with complex needs) find every day in the classroom traumatising - it’s not a competition? It’s not a binary good against bad.

the child perpetrating the behaviour needs to be managed. This is not in question. My issue is with the fact that many on here seem to need the kind of behavioural consequences they deem appropriate to be meted out to kids they know nothing about and they have no business in knowing about. If your child is subsequently kept safe then it is nobodies business how the other child is “dealt with”.

As I say, I have experience on both sides of this (as well as, now, professionally). My gentle ds1 was targeted at school when he was in primary school and it was miserable. He also lives with an sen sibling who is frequently disregulated to the point that he has given his brother a black eye more than once. He has had an enormous impact on all of his siblings and they have to live with this. What would you suggest we do as parents? Try harder? Send him away to live somewhere else? My ds2 is full of shame and remorse when he is regulated again - we obviously tried all the usual disciplinary measures before we understood him and his neurotype - no surprises they didn’t work. I’m glad you managed to work with your child’s trauma. Some kids have to live with this every day - it doesn’t mean that I am not protecting my other kids when I can’t manage my ds2 behaviour.

its unbelievably simplistic to demonise those kids as a pp has done recently and it makes ME want to cry tbh. I work with and we have been a family with extremely complex trauma related to this stuff.

Imagine what it must feel like for a little boy or girl having to go into school every day wondering if they are going to be used as a punchbag ......again

But who has ever said this is ok?!

The majority of those kids (including my own who was briefly the punchbag at school and much more so at home) have nurturing and understanding parents who can hopefully advocate for them at school and ensure that this doesn’t happen again and can help them to process this truly awful thing that has happened. If they don’t have sen of their own then they hopefully in time will be able to process this.

imagine being a child who is constantly in fight or flight, permanently anxious and disregulated and in a school environment that cannot cater for their needs and never will. Neither is more deserving. But the way a child with sen is disciplined is the business of nobody but the school and the parents and professionals dealing with that child. Unless you truly believe that the child is “bad” then I don’t understand why you wouldn’t leave it to those who understand that child better to decide how to deal with them (that includes teachers, parents, professionals and agencies who will have been intimately involved in the child’s condition and diagnosis - none of which anyone else will be privy to).

safeguarding is an entirely separate matter.

@anonymous0810 thank you for the apology, I appreciate that. I can see that it is hard when you have a child who experiences the other side of the coin too and it must be worrying, as a parent, to imagine what the future holds because school is probably the most sympathetic and aware that society gets.

I do think perhaps schools need better plans for dealing with incidents that take into account the needs of all stakeholders. Too often, in my experience anyway, it felt like the opposite of traditional behaviour management was just nothing or something minimising like reminding about 'kind hands'. I don't think that children need to see something punitive but they need to see action of some sort that shows that, in some way, the grown ups are 'on it' and they are safe.

I agree. What would this look like for your child? I am genuinely interested. Can we agree that disciplining a child who is not in control of their behaviour is not necessarily the best idea and can just compound shame and drive the behaviour? It certainly does for my child. I found more creative ways to nurture my other children (especially ds1) and validate their experiences whilst de-escalating my ds2 behaviour - but it wouldn’t look like traditional “consequences”. I can promise you living with it in the house and loving all of the players in it is very, very difficult and pretty much rules our life. I am not alone although things are now much easier.

I actually work in non-violent resistance as a therapist and it may be of interest to take a look if you have time? It is not about ignoring challenging behaviour but it is certainly not about punishments and rewards. It has been transformative for us and for many of my clients.

anyway - I really genuinely hope your son is ok.

My son 20 odd years ago nipped this sort of merciless bullying by a SEN child in his class by punching the child as hard he could in the face - not advocating this at all but you definitely need to protect your child by whatever means. Raise it with the head teacher and the governors oftsted also.And ask for the safety plan for your child to be put in writing.
A friend of mine made a 101 police report when her child was being used as a meltdown punchbag which soon got the schools arse in gear.

I think children are pretty good at understanding differences in consequences and behaviours and needs now - they are certainly much more aware and sympathetic than when I was at school!

But I think they need to feel like something has happened. For my child, he wanted the child who has done the hurting to be removed from the room for a period. I think he would have been happy for it to be phrased as: 'To keep everyone safe, because we care about you all, and X is finding it tricky right now we're just going to take X out now for 10 mins' or for X to be directed to a regulation room. He just needed to see it phrased as action taken because staff cared about everyone not inaction because staff didn't care about him. If that makes sense?

I should add and then for staff to check on on him, reiterate that it wasn't okay but why it might have happend etc

Yes , make it clear the others child’s needs however complex are not any of your concern at all. Your only concern needs to be your child

Whilst I agree that X is finding it tricky and so needs to regulate, so everyone is safe, saying that to a class full of children is incredibly shaming.

Surely the action of doing it is enough without the public shaming?

I also agree that affected children should be checked on and looked after properly.

I would just be quite upset if after/during one of my son’s meltdowns the staff team were declaring to the other 9 year olds that he was struggling and making them unsafe. There’s no need for that.

I get what your saying but addressing to the full class like that wouldn't go down well with me as his parent.
the child he hurt, fine. Not the class.

I mean I didn't say that it was to the room but the child being hurt is often surrounded by other children in a classroom so conversations will be overheard.
And, they know that they are being made unsafe by the other child's actions - they are witnessing it. If you want other kids to understand and be empathetic and understand these behaviours without shame, how do you achieve this without actually talking to them about what is going on? The most empathetic children I have ever seen had loads and loads of open conversations about the boy in their class and his needs and so when things happened they were blase.

The PP is perfectly entitled to explain her lived experience. If it was hell, then it was hell.

With you saying 'to keep you all safe' it sounded like addressing the class.

I'm all for teachers talking to other children about A SEN child, My child's teacher talks to his class mates about him when/if needed, but it's not a class discussion/topic.
they all have an understanding of him.

Ah. I meant you all as in to imply both the person being hurt, anyone else in the immediate path and the person who was being removed, but I take the point.

I think if you are looking at a big event (chair throwing, table smashing, physical violence against a child seen by others), the class do sometimes need to break down what they have seen with adult guidance. Not every time, of course but I'm not sure how you get a lack of shame, but also action to show that rules are being upheld within the framework of that child, without actually talking to kids openly. I can see that it must be tricky, as I said, to get it right for all stakeholders which is why really good guidance would probably help schools to navigate these situations better.

I’d not be happy about the class having loads and loads of conversations about my child. She isn’t an object lesson to teach other kids empathy.

There needs to be a conversation with the hurt child about them and their feelings, and reassurance that it’s being dealt with. There needs to be some exploration of what they need to be put in place for them to feel safe in class and negotiation where what they want isn’t possible but focussed on them, not the other child.

The other child needs whatever is deemed appropriate for them, so removal from the class, close supervision or whatever. The other children will see the child not being in class, having a TA present etc - no conversation needed with them because they’ll observe whatever happens.

Explaining to the class, or a group of children created vulnerability for the child who has additional needs. It’s not unheard of for kids to goad the other, because they know the child will explode, and class will be interrupted while it’s all dealt with. I expect the school staff to preserve the dignity and privacy of all the children involved, not use their vulnerability as an object lesson.

@Jellycatspyjamas these were conversations that had happened over years, I should make that clear. It wasn't like they were chatting every day since a September start!

@Jellycatspyjamas all I can say is that the decision of the parents, teachers, professionals of this particular child was to speak openly with their year group and that the result was that they were fiercely loyal to the child, had their back and were incredibly blase or supportive when 'unwanted' behaviours occured. I'm not saying that would be true of everyone in all circumstances but in this case that is what happened.