Help - a classmate is stalking my ten year old DD

[ElfinsMum]

A girl in my daughter's class has become properly obsessed with my daughter and it has now escalated to the point where her behaviour is abusive. Has anyone else experienced this? What did you do? What did the school do? How did things work out in the end?

The girl has delayed social development but, although the school have recommended referral/assessment several times, her parents have chosen not to get her assessed. It used to be that she was just a bit socially awkward but now in year 5 the other girls are maturing fast, their relationships are much richer and this poor girl just can't cope.

In the absence of being able to make a real friend, she is attempting to OWN my DD. For the last 3 months she has been overwhelming DD1 with demands to play in her group, be her partner, be on her team, go to her birthday party etc. She physically grabs my daughter, hugs her without asking and has hit others (although not DD so far) out of frustration. Now it has escalated to the point that this girl follows DD1 around close behind her every minute of break and lunch just shouting "What are you doing DD1?" over and over.

My daughter knows that this girl has social problems and isn't doing any of this out of meanness. But it is wrecking DD1's life: she has gone from smug top dog to school refuser; she has stopped eating at school because she feels so sick all the time; in fact her anxiety is so bad it has caused chronic headache and vertigo; she has discussed suicide. When she tries to set boundaries and tell the girl to go away, she says it lasts for a few minutes at most.

We know the whole family well. Last year, the mum was seriously ill and we provided a lot of childcare to the girl and her brother. DD1 wasn't especially keen on us doing this but I persuaded her to do it out of kindness. Unfortunately, the girl seems to have concluded that since she had a weekly playdate with DD1 last year, DD1 must be her best friend. I feel terrible that my do-gooding has backfired so badly on my daughter.

The school have done some basic stuff - moving seats away from each other in the classroom, no group work - but playground is still a nightmare. My daughter has started seeing a psych to work on her own boundaries and resilience. What else would you ask the school to do? What else would you recommend I do to help my daughter?

Another vote here for moving Schools. If the school your DD is at is not willing/able to to deal with the situation then you are fighting a losing battle. So move her. Yes it shouldn’t be like that but your priority is your DD
Faced a somewhat similar issue with DS (we also not in sun) was the best think we ever did for him and he flourished.
My suggestion would be to continue with the therapy for a while - we did with DS and it helped him.

@MrsTerryPratchett Could you share a bit about what you actually did to help your daughter build up her boundaries and become less of a magnet for these needy types? I have always had problems with that kind of person latching onto me - can hardly go on a bus without someone telling me their whole sad life story! - so I have been talking about boundaries a lot but it is a blind spot for me in practice.

@LolaSmiles Thanks for providing a teacher's perspective, it is really helpful. The secondary is quite small, at least compared to state secondaries here. Would 800 be big enough for them to avoid each other do you think?

The school have said we should write and they will also write to recommend the girls be split.

Hi @ElfinsMum…How fabulous that you are recognizing that this is a problem for your daughter now. My DD14 has had similar issues with several girls in her year (also Aus) and they have huge issues going on in their lives. Have realised that this is a pattern of hers that she’s had since starting school that I probably helped set up for her by demanding that she ignore her irritation with people with issues, who were actually pinging her own personal red flags. I also realize that I have done the same myself for my entire life. It’s that whole “Be Nice” matyrdom that was foistered upon me by my mother who didn’t want to listen when I was really being bullied at the time. This created low self-esteem and no value for my own boundaries. I am working really hard on turning that around with my daughter now because she is NOT a social worker or guidance counsellor and she is exhausted by carrying their problems.

As the school is not empowered to do anything about this, have you considered “legal” action? Perhaps you could go and have a chat with the local police or even get a solicitor to write a “cease and desist” kind of letter. This is still harrassment, and your child has the legal right to peaceful enjoyment of school, etc. As it stands, there is no medical reason why this kid behaves this way. Everyone is expected to give her all the benefits of having a medical/social problem, but they are suffering the consequences of the parents neglecting to have it assessed and treated. I suspect that the threat of a legal letter would have them running to a paediatrician just to cover their butts.

I’m amazed the head teacher would discuss so much detail about an another child to be honest. That would make me want to move schools alone. Sorry this is happening to your poor daughter I hope she bounces straight back to herself

Just from previous experience with genuine stalkers that warranted police involvement, both of whom turned out to have ASD and couldn't read non-verbal cues that I was afraid/uncomfortable...

Has she explicitly said "Leave me alone. I do not want to be friends with you. I don't like spending time with you and I want you to stay away from me." ?

In both cases of harrasment that went on for years, I'd been afraid to tell these people as I was terrified of them. Turns out because I'd never verbally said "leave me alone" they didn't realise I didn't enjoy being stalked . As soon as I did, they left me alone.

In this case, because the adults involved had HFA and were struggling to understand the impact of their actions, the police arranged for a process called Restorative Justice. It's not actually recommended for stalking victims but in my case, I think because they never really realised the impact of their behaviour and had no history of violence or sexual convictions, the police pushed for it, and it worked. I had to sit in a room with the other person/s plus the officials and tell them the kind of impact their behaviour had on me and what I wanted (i.e them to stay as far away as possible from me, not follow me or my family, never speak to any of us, never come to my home or place of work etc, stop trying to gain information about me
etc). They were genuinely shocked. The man actually believed I was attracted to him and wanted to marry him. I was utterly terrifed of him and he'd made my blood run cold from the moment I met him as a 9 year old child when he was already a grown adult.

In both cases, they instantly stopped. They had just needed told very clearly and verbally.

Could the school set up a meeting with both girls, all parents and staff involved where your daughter could be supported to tell the other girl how miserable she is making her and that she wants her to stay away? And you could directly address the parents with your concerns and explain they need to reinforce these boundaries with her? And the school staff need to back up with clear instructions to the girl;

"Olivia, Emily doesn't want to be your friend. That's ok, we are allowed to say no to friendships if they make us uncomfortable.
Stop following Emily now. She doesn't like it. Your behaviour is annoying her. If you continue following her you will have to go and sit inside with x teacher."

Everyone needs to be very firm in implementing this with the girl. They all need to fully understand the impact it's having and support your daughter.

This is interesting Gullible2021 - but surely in this case several people including DD1, the OP and the teachers have told the girl to stop following because DD1 doesn't like it........

So if you are in Australia, you are only mid-way through the school year, right? I was thinking July finish which would have changed my advice. Does she have 18 months left at this primary?

Are there multiple classes in her year group? Can the other girl be moved to another class? I think the school needs to be doing more.

I had similar troubles not with my own child but when I worked as a nanny. The little girl I looked after was absolutely hounded by one of her classmates. It was slightly different I think as when he didn't get the positive attention he was after he would get violent towards this little girl. The school moved him to mornings only and he had a separate playtime from the little girl I looked after. The other pupils were taught a technique which basically amounted to " grey rock -ing" him. Following a strangulation attempt he was excluded for 2 weeks. This was a rural state school (the only one nearby) and he had already been "encouraged to move" from his state primary in his last area. He wasn't expelled -mostly because there was nowhere else to go- but the school had 1-1 for him and he was never alone with other pupils. I will say though that his parents were involved and supported the actions (i.e. half-days). However, there are still behavioural management strategies that your DD's school could employ. Their play needs to be more supervised to start with.

Unfortunately, ultimately in my our case, with the violence the damage had been done to my charge's confidence and love of her school. Although the rural primary successfully managed him to the point he could not attack her or harass his classmates she was scared to be there due to his prior actions. Fortunately she had well off parents and the nearby girls' private school was opening a junior division. She moved and he couldn't follow. I appreciate that the same can't happen with your daughter as her classmate is also a girl.

Is the private secondary selective? There might be a chance that your DD's classmate is not accepted. As it has 800+ students I think it would be ok there, with the girls in separate classes and the school aware of the difficulties. Although I would also encourage you to have a look at other secondary options just in case, my biggest concern would be for the last stretch of primary.

It's not fair that your DD should be the one to move as it is her school and she seem to have been happy there apart from this other girl. However if there is no action being taken it may be in her best interests. Anxiety to the point of illness and talking of suicide is not acceptable. Does the future secondary have a junior section or even a feeder primary? Do other secondaries around you have a junior division? That way it could be simply moving to her new school early. Hopefully in the next year and a bit, even if the other girl goes to the same secondary, the other girl would have moved on from her obsession. Have you asked your DD if she wants to move schools? Her answer might be helpful there.

To be honest if I was your daughter being put in counselling about boundary setting would annoy me greatly - she is not the one who is the problem and there is fuck all she can actually do if this other girl is in her class and allowed by adults to be with her at breaks. She can set all the boundaries she likes but without adult intervention this other girls will run roughshod over them. Pardon my language. I don't mean to say it's a bad thing in the long run, she will need those skills as she gets older, but as a child in this situation it is almost useless unless the other girl is trained on respecting boundaries and has this enforced by a teacher. Even as an adult you are sometimes taught that the best option is to walk away, leave the area entirely and end any communication - well a little girl in primary school can't do this.

I would also gently say to be mindful of your own actions. You wrote that:

DD1 wasn't especially keen on us doing this but I persuaded her to do it out of kindness. Unfortunately, the girl seems to have concluded that since she had a weekly playdate with DD1 last year, DD1 must be her best friend. I feel terrible that my do-gooding has backfired so badly on my daughter.

Now you could never have foreseen the extent of the outcome of this and you were helping a friend. So I don't think you should feel guilty. But your DD signalled that she wasn't keen and you pushed her into it out of 'kindness'. This is the opposite of health boundary setting. I see this happen a lot on MN and real life. A common recurrence is inviting bullies to birthday parties. Or that picture that went round saying everyone is concerned about their kids' results but not whether they talk to the kid sitting all alone. Well, frankly, sometimes there is a reason that kid is all alone! If they are the new kid or their friends are home sick or whatever, yes, be kind! If it is a child who harasses you and has no one to sit with because of their behaviour this may end in disaster like my poor charge being strangled in a playground.

If your DD is signalling she in uncomfortable with being forced into certain social interactions, I would say back off in the future. It definitely won't help her set boundaries if you overrule them. I see kindness championed all the time and kindness is wonderful but sometimes when people say "be kind" what they really mean is "be quiet and accept this." One time my mother invited the neighbour's son on holiday with us out of kindness - except he was absolutely obsessed with me and had repeatedly asked me out for months (and she knew this!). It was terrible and really fuelled his behaviour. She wanted to be kind to him as his parents were in the middle of an acrimonious divorce but it wasn't kind to me.

At the end of the day it sounds like you are trying your best and want the best for your daughter. You need to be her champion. This other child's behaviour has caused your DD severe anxiety - either these two girls need to be entirely separated by the school or by changing schools, in my opinion. It is too far gone for their relationship as friends or classmates to be mended. And keep them separate outside of school - no playdates, no popping over, no emergency childcare for this other family. DD is your number 1 priority.

I do want to say I know how awful it is to watch. I was only the nanny not the parent but it was really hard to see. I really wish you all the best.

We had similar to a lesser extent. The girls were younger. We moved schools due to other issues too and it was the right decision.

@TheoMeo

This is interesting Gullible2021 - but surely in this case several people including DD1, the OP and the teachers have told the girl to stop following because DD1 doesn't like it........

Well hopefully the OP will update us on this but she might not have been firmly told.

OP says her DD has told her to "go
away" and the teachers have moved chairs
and not allowed them to be put in groups together.

This is not necessarily the same as being firmly told to stay away for good and the consequences and impact of her behaviour having been explained.

From working in schools, sometimes teachers subtly change seating arrangements and teams without EVER explaining it to the child whose behaviour is a problem. Sometimes children don't understand "go away" means "go away and don't come back to play with me because I don't ever want to be friends with you".
They can interpret it, sometimes, as "go away for bit and come back in 5 minutes when I'm not busy."

If this girl actually has an additional need such as ASD, she may need appropriate behaviour and inappropriate behaviour very clearly spelled out to her and may struggle to read tone, body language etc. I know neither of my stalkers would have clocked that a teacher wasn't having us work together or sit near each other because of their behaviour unless they were explicity told. A
move would have been too subtle for them to register. I did say to both of them at some point, "I can't talk to you", "I'm going now"
etc and neither of them realised it was anything to with them. They just thought I meant "I can't talk to you now but try again later" and "I'm going now but see you again soon" as they couldn't read that I was pissed
off/terrified/upset. In fact, both of them could recall seeing me in tears when saying these things and assumed someone else had upset me.

Schools will often handle bullying in a subtle
way so the victim doesn't face any repercussions for "telling". So changing
seating plans or partners for the whole class rather than saying "Olivia, you aren't allowed
to sit next to Emily anymore because your behaviour annoys and upsets her." In this case, with a ND child, it may be that this goes completely over her head and makes her all the more determined to catch up
outside the classroom.

@TheoMeo and @Gullible2021 So far the class teacher has said to the girl that she should try playing with different people and the seating and groups has been done without discussion. I agree, this will have gone way over this girl's head - I think she has no idea she is being anything other than very nice to DD1. That's actually the biggest problem with the situation in some ways.

My daughter regularly tells her to go away as politely as she can, e.g. "Please go away X, I don't want to play with you right now" The little girl looks hurt and heads off but returns after 2-5 mins as if nothing has happened. Others have got into trouble for being nasty to her when they have told her to get lost less politely and she has told on them for being mean but I don't think that would happen now I have reported what is going on.

The girl and her parents are meeting with the head soon. I expect the head will spell it out much more directly to them all. And both me and DD1 will probably cop it

Oh and yes, we are half way through year 5, 18 months to go.

The secondary has a primary school.

I have asked my daughter to consider moving to the other class in her year. She is doesn't love the idea because they have a lovely teacher and she has a good group of friends and not so many friends in the other class. But she is thinking about it.

I may also offer her the option of moving to her new school early. She knows a couple there already.

Being forced to move her is a bloody horrible thought though. We have loved this school and have two more coming through behind her.

[quote ElfinsMum]**@TheoMeo* and @Gullible2021* So far the class teacher has said to the girl that she should try playing with different people and the seating and groups has been done without discussion. I agree, this will have gone way over this girl's head - I think she has no idea she is being anything other than very nice to DD1. That's actually the biggest problem with the situation in some ways.

My daughter regularly tells her to go away as politely as she can, e.g. "Please go away X, I don't want to play with you right now" The little girl looks hurt and heads off but returns after 2-5 mins as if nothing has happened. Others have got into trouble for being nasty to her when they have told her to get lost less politely and she has told on them for being mean but I don't think that would happen now I have reported what is going on.

The girl and her parents are meeting with the head soon. I expect the head will spell it out much more directly to them all. And both me and DD1 will probably cop it [/quote]
So it sounds like the school do need to actually spell it out much more clearly, as you say - it's going over her head.

And yes the polite "Please go away, I don't want to play with you right now"
is being translated in the girl's head as "She doesn't want to play with me right now. I'll
come back in a few minutes."

Maybe you could work with your lovely dd to be firmer and much more direct about what she wants and have some "bank phrases"
she's rehearsed and is confident with saying. "Olivia, I hate it when you follow me around. I don't want to play with you anymore. Go away and stop bothering me, your behaviour is annoying me and making me upset. STAY AWAY FROM ME." Use the broken record technique too.

And one a counsellor recommended to me
about unwanted touch...

If the other girl is approaching to hug etc get your daughter to put her hand out in front of her, palm held out and up in the classic stop sign and loudly say at the same time "STOP.
Do NOT hug/ me. I don't want a hug/you to touch me. GO AWAY."

If the girl initiates physical contact from behind or blindsides your dd before she gets a chance to do the above, tell her to loudly and firmly yell "Do NOT touch me. Get off me NOW." followed by "NEVER DO THAT AGAIN."

Tell her you give her full permission for her to be firm and that it's ok to let someone know firmly when they are making you feel uncomfortable and ignoring boundaries. Tell her she doesn't always need to be kind and polite. It's ok to seem rude when you don't feel safe and she has your full permission and support to be assertive and strong with this girl.

Suggest to rehearse school they move the other child to the other class- your dd should not have to move if she doesn’t want to.
The other girl needs some very unambiguous messages, and some one to support her to deal with these

Others have got into trouble for being nasty to her when they have told her to get lost less politely and she has told on them for being mean

Despite the teachers knowing the issues with this girl the children are being told off? This is very bad policy - they now have a child having to leave the school because they can't bring themselves to deal with this - I presume because they also want to be seen as 'kind'.
They have the authority and the power but are preferring to be seen as 'nice' to the girl and the children she is harrassing.
Infuriating and unprofessional imv.

If there are two classes they should move the other girl not your DD!

Thank you @Gullible2021, those phrases and gestures are very helpful in reframing for me what an assertive approach would look like here.

And definitely agree about giving DD1 permission to be strong. I have actually been coaching her to get angry about what this child is doing to her because she is kind of stuck in feeling sorry for her mode (legacy of my do gooding last year).

Oh your poor DD (and the other girl who sounds like she is being badly let down by her parents and the school) I hope things get resolved.

As a Senco, I find it very concerning that you appear to know do much private information about this girl.
This sounds very much like a pupil in my class. No one likes her because she’s very different. She wants to play with the others and follows them round but they just keep rejecting her. It’s awful to witness. Being ostracised for being different is horrendous.

@MissyB1

Well it sounds an awful situation, and I was full of sympathy - until you expressed your sadness that your dd is no longer "smug top dog".....

Oh give over She's expressing how her daughter used to be sociable and popular and now isn't. Why does someone always have to be the mean spirited one who picks on something?? Does it make you feel good to do that?

@Soontobe60 the OP knows the family and looked after this girl when her mother was ill.

This sounds very much like a pupil in my class. No one likes her because she’s very different

Could teachers arrange with the classmates that one person plays with the child each day, a different one each day.
I don't suppose parents would agree but it's sad that this happens.

The problem is is that children are locked together all day and can't escape each other.

I'm sure that the adults on here would get peed off if every time they went out someone that they're not keen on pulled up a chair and stopped them talking to their friends.

Funny you should say that @whiteroseredrose, I ended up stuck chatting to this girl at a school event a couple of weeks ago. She rushes up to me any given opportunity tbh, always wants to know where DD1 is. I was talking to her for 10 minutes. She peppered me with very loosely themed questions about our family non stop even when I deliberately looked away to watch the match, folded my arms. She displayed almost all the problems DD1 has complained about: intrusive questions, poor volume control, not picking body language, invading personal space. I was very relieved it was over.

Now I write that it makes me wonder: what could have happened to make her so much worse all of a sudden? She wasn't unbearable like that four to six months ago.

Your dd needs to tell the other girl firmly and in no uncertain terms to leave her alone. She needs to stand tall and let the girl know assertively that she does not want to play with her and that the other girl needs to find something else to be friends with. You need to stop facilitating any playdates or childcare and cease any social contact with the other family. Basically she needs to put her off herself by being a bit brusk and unkind.