Is it ok to tell my son to hit back?

[WendyWolf]

.. I am very against that advise but really getting sick of things and at wits end.

Basically we had issues that came to a head in Yr5. Had gone on for 3 years and 3 different Heads and the behavioural problems in a small group of boys were not improving. My son was desperately unhappy. After much gut wrenching/governor complaints etc we finally moved schools. Best thing we ever did. DS settled fast, a weight was lifted from him and to prove it he did himself really proud in SATS and left primary on a high.

Now at upper school. Some of the original children from previous school are there and he generally gives them a wide berth. We have had a few incidents but he has handled it well - one kid in particular just being persistently mean. I informed the school every time - who seem pretty uninterest to be honest. DS grits teeth and gets on with it. - Said child apparently took shit stuff off his shoe today and wiped all over my DS's jumper. We grit teeth. At the bus stop today older child went up to mine and slapped him on both sides of his face. Laughed and carried on his way. This child is a couple of years older, lives locally and had done similar a few times now.

What do I do? Tell my 11 yr old to toughen up? Stand up for himself? Each little incident takes him a step back to remembering the awful bullying of before and I can see his anxiety levels rising. What would you do? Most blokes seem to say to boys to hit back etc. It doesn't sit right with me. But I am aware he is 11 and I can't keep fighting his battles for him. I would really welcome some advice from others who have experienced similar and come out the other side.

Also DS and I divorcing. Kid has enough going on.

I'm so sorry this is happening to your son, and at such a difficult time for you all.

You clearly can't tell him to hit back, because that would be completely wrong. ...
However, one day the school bully said something horribly offensive and I completely lost it and socked him one. He was twice my size and I should think he could have flattened me. He wiped his nose and said, "fair play to you", then never bothered me again. The playground superviser saw it happen, so I got hauled off to face the class teacher, but I didn't get into any trouble. My teacher said, "I've been waiting for you to do that".

Okay, so that happened in the 1970s and school policies have (rightly) changed. Still, bullies pick a victim, probably because they secretly feel weak and vulnerable themselves, and when you stop acting like a victim they tend to move on to somebody else.

Years later, when I was an adult working with children who had been excluded for fighting at school, I used to teach them to laugh at the bullies. That way, things didn't escalate and they didn't get into trouble themselves, but the bullies found it very disempowering and didn't want to look silly in front of their 'crowd'. The children I was working with used to plan their lines in advance and practise saying them confidently and with a slightly pitying expression. It worked nearly all of the time, and had the advantage of not involving the teachers so they didn't become a grass. Once, I saw a bully's friends all turn round and laugh at him instead of egging him on as they were planning to do.

I wish your son all the best - bullying can be so awful and he shouldn't have to go through this!

Yes you should tell your some to hit back - fuck letting someone else hit/punch/kick you. I already tell my 3yr old if that anyone hits her deliberately to hit them back.

Most people who hit are bullies, they only stop when you hit them back.

Son not some.

Peggy, do you just have the one child?

I have two boys, and am training them not to hit back. You should see the horrible escalation when one thinks the other hit them, so retaliates, but the original bump was an accident, so the retaliation seems unfair and worthy of a kick which is harder than the original whack. .. and so on!

Hitting back is not the way forward, as your three year old will discover when older. Having worked with children, I know that the one throwing the punches is rarely the one that started it - but the one throwing the punches is usually the one that gets into serious trouble at school.

I say, "it takes a bigger man to walk away", and "using violence shows a serious lack of imagination", and "I guess by using your fists instead of your brains you are practising for being one of those fools that gets arrested outside the local nightclub every Friday night".

Not being taken for a mug is one thing. .. But I used to despair of the "my dad to hit back" thing - it was so counterproductive, and the cause of so many problems in school (including missed education while spending hours every day in the isolation unit or standing outside the head's office.

But there's a difference between telling a 3 year old this and an 11 year old.

I think it's got to that stage where he needs to assert himself tbh. Can't be good for his self-esteem to be constantly told he has to accept it. And if it's happening out of school bounds too then it would seem that's his opportunity to stand up for himself.

it was so counterproductive, and the cause of so many problems in school

so as a reasonable person you understand that the child who hit back - did so in self defence - and yet they got into trouble -

I think the law allows reasonable defence -

It begs the questions

Why isn't the situation being dealt with in isolation?

Why isn't there records of incidents? Schools are quick to record "accidents" but there are no records of a child being permanent and persistently taunted. Harassed and bullied

The reason parents tell there DC to hit back is because school policy is ineffective - nothing changes

You need to spend that time changing school policy so children can be safe at school

They're eduction is wasted because they are being bullied - not because they hit back

Shame on you

--is - not isn't

Their -

If your DH got slapped at the bus stop he'd hit back. Why is it different for a boy?

Fuck standing there getting slapped and just letting him get away with it. No, been there, done that, play nicely all that stuff, in the end punch him HARD and he will think twice of coming back to slap you.

And I hate violence but I hate bullying.

My DS had a hard time in the last couple of years at primary school, school tried to help, we tried to help. I told all my dc's that if someone hits/kicks you to give them a warning that if they do it again you'll do it back, giving the other person the opportunity to stop or even apologies. In year six he was being goaded, gave a warning the boy continued and DS lost his temper and hit him back apparently he really lost it and his teachers were shocked it was so out of character. Obviously he apologised when he calmed down and we discussed better ways he could have handled the situation.

However it did no end of good. The boy concerned is now a good friend and they were back to friends by the next day. DS says he just stopped being 'an idiot' and he is a lovely boy. They're now in secondary school and this story has followed him so although he is nerdy and proud he's also known not to be messed with. Also he cannot stand any bullying and will stick up for anyone who he sees being bullied and is known for being very kind to other boys. His friends respect him and luckily he's never t the sort to take advantage.

DD was being bullied by a boy bigger in the year above

Hit kicked punch daily

We tried her writing sticky notes
We tried telling school head
We tried walking away
We tried emailing Gov
We tried reason

So I told her "hit him back - make it once and make sure it's hard -

She did - he cried (God shot)

She is not violent - she was the victim

He left her alone

He's at high school now doing the same to others - he hasn't learnt his lesson - not taking action has caused him years of misery at high school

They let down my daughter and they let down this boy -

DropYourSword - no, a 3 year old should tell an adult.

I've worked in nurseries now and again, and the preschoolers whose said their parents had told them to hit people in self defence were very difficult to manage, and tended to hit other 3 year olds quit hard for such non-offences as choosing the wrong toy or being first in the queue for the toilet.

I also wouldn't (officially) tell an 11 year old to hit back, although I would admit quietly that it sometimes works. This is because no 11 year old should be told to fight, for any reason, and because hitting back in a school situation can lead to being in trouble for fighting. I worked with one young man who had been kicked out of school three times for fighting (his dad had told him to hit back) and I was the first member of staff who had bothered to listen to his side of the story!

An 11 year old should tell an adult, and has the right to expect that the adults will deal with it. Sadly, the adults often don't deal with it. I have often watched bullies taunt somebody into responding with violence, then stand by laughing as the victim gets sent to the isolation unit. As CodyKing rightly points out, many schools are pretty crap at dealing with bullying. I always reported it when I saw it happen, but was powerless to intervene directly.

CodyKing - you have certainly misunderstood the nature of my post in school! I was there as one-to-one support for children who had ALREADY been excluded for fighting. I worked with them outside of school, and then went back into school with them, as sort-of peer supoort at their side through lessons and playtimes. I was privileged to be allowed into their world. I was certainly not on the management team, I was not even a 'proper' teacher!

It's sad that this thread has become about hitting back. As I said upthread, it worked for me as a child, but only because I lost it and the bully wasn't expecting it. Really clever bullies find ways to use hitting back to their advantage. Laughing at them makes them look silly and shows them your bothered.

(You're NOT bothered, that should say)

Hit back, absolutely.

Primary age (whilst in school), you have to stick with telling the teacher etc, but out of school & at secondary hit back.

I've always told my boys:
Don't start anything.
If something happens, do enough to get away.

At secondary age, they have to stand up to it themselves, it's the only way that bullies won't see them as an easy target.
I hate bullies with a passion.

Please do not teach your children to hit back. Since when is violence solved with violence? If your child hits another in school you risk them also being punished - likely excluded!!!

Report every incident outside of school to the police, and every incident in school to the school. Keep on, they have to investigate and take steps to sort it out. If it then isn't being sorted, you can take it higher, but encouraging your child to retaliate and be physically violent is not the answer.

Those of you saying hit back (at secondary age), are you aware of how many kids are carrying knives these days?

Maybe this doesn't happen so much in nice neighbourhoods, but it does happen, believe me. I once asked a group of year 9 children if they were carrying knives, and got shown a remarkable number of knives tucked into socks and waistbands.

Violence is not the way forward. .. Although honestly I do sympathise with those kids that hit out in desperation to stop the bullying.

UCLA has done some research that shows, iirc, that at different points but particularly around transitions, almost everyone gets fed 'bullying lines', and that a child's response impacts whether they go on to become a repeat victim. The key, apparently, is to act 'not bothered'. Getting upset, getting angry, and ignoring all count as 'bothered' responses. So what the poster upthread was doing, teaching responses such as laughing at the bully, rolling eyed, saying 'whatever' etc is good practice. This is for verbal bullying BTW, I don't think it works for physical bullying. Physical bullying does often respond to some sort of assertion on the bullied person's behalf. A friend punched her bully, he stopped. I told the local bullies, bullying my younger sibling, that if they ever did it again 'I'd call the fucking police on them', whilst squaring up to them. I think as I was about 12 and looked very proper this shocked them and they never bothered us again.

I had an interesting illustration of this recently. I work with autistic children in mainstream and have an autistic child myself. Recently I was working with a boy the same age as my son. He had got into a negative spiral at school, people saying mean things and he had got paranoid so practically whenever someone spoke to him he would tell them to fuck off, which exacerbated his reputation as a horrible kid, etc. It all started with kids telling him he was weird and it escalated. My son (different school) says he's never been bullied. I was wondering how he was so lucky and spoke to him about it, thinking about the other lad I said 'Doesn't anyone even ever call you weird?' (DS very clearly not neurotypical). He said ' oh yes, lots'. I asked him 'what do you say then, when they call you weird'. He said ' I usually say, "thanks, it's a talent".'
So the response can make all the difference, which is not the same as victim blaming.

Apple1992

You've never experienced a bullied child then have you?

Take it higher?? They don't care - there is no requirement to collect or publish bullying figures - They don't have to keep records -
They have an "oh just say sorry" approach without getting under the skin of the problem

Good luck with informing schools - the have no idea how to deal with it

And I'll tell you this -

I had a call to say DD punched child A. - Oh I say - have you phoned child's A's parents about Monday? Tuesday etc when they hit my DD?

No? We didn't know about those

"But DD reported it to the dinner ladies?"

they don't have a central log - they don't talk to each other

Oh dear, Cody, that's a horribly perfect example of how retaliation so often gets the victim into trouble - and it happens so often.

sounds like the bullies might have been trying to provoke a violent response so they could report it. If so, your poor dd played right into their hands.

Maybe next time (and sadly, there will be a next time), she could tell them she is marching straight to the head's office to tell him/her in person, and also reporting the assault to the police so they have a record. On the other hand, she could shrug, do her best to laugh, and tell them they must be pretty sad people with very little going on in their lives if they think picking on people for no reason is a valid form of entertainment.

I definitely want my children to be able to defend themselves and if they were in a similar situation to your ds I would tell them to hit back but you know your ds best.

As a pp as an adult I wouldn't let somebody hit me without attempting to defend myself.

They HIT her - she walked away and told

SCHOOL did nothing

DD hit back and they rang ME

They did not ring bullies parents -

Work it out!!!

I have worked it out, I do hear what you're saying and I agree that it isn't right. It happens all too often (and will only get worse when all schools are academies and accountable to nobody but themselves).

You could ask to see the school bullying policy, and ask what systems they have on place for sharing information with lunch time staff. You could ask what kind of training the lunch time staff have had, and how equipped they are to deal with bullying issues.

It probably won't get you anywhere, but you can try. It's your dd who is on the front line, and having a copy of the bullying policy won't help her in the short term. She needs practical strategies for dealing with it before it escalates. Ask the school what they think she should do. .. and also talk with her about what she thinks might work. You never know, she might surprise you with her inventiveness.

Do you think I did nothing?

Yes we followed the channels

Yes we escalated it

THEY don't care they aren't accountable -