why flame ff mums?

[maxpower]

I'm getting increasingly pissed off with literature that treats ff so negatively. I was reading the bounty book about pregnancy and in one of the sections about feeding your baby, it was structured entirely around why ff was wrong and evil and no good for your baby (rather than focusing on the positives about bf). IMO, mums should be supported and recognised for whatever decisions they make about feeding their babies. Every contact I've had so far in this pregnancy in relation to feeding has gone on and on about bf like anything else is completely unacceptable. We hear a lot about bf mums feeling unsupported but nothing is set up to support ff mums. I've never seen ff cafe's or meet ups advertised anywhere, so ff mum's are also being excluded from important social and supportive events. No-one ever seems to recognise that actually, ff can be harder work in some respects. Bf mums don't need to wash, sterilise and make up bottles, they don't have to plan ahead when going out - if they get held up they have food immediately available, they don't have to consider how they will heat bottles etc when out, they don't have to spend money on formula. How about some support for mums who either choose or resort to ffeeding rather than treating them as lazy, selfish mums who don't care about their baby's wellbeing?

maxpower - in the town I live in there are approximately 40 mother and baby groups - 2 are for breastfeeding mothers. the rest are for predominantly formula feeding mothers so far as I can tell.

anyway, I think the reason bfing mothers require more support is because a) they, and they alone, are responsible for feeding their child (ffing can be done by any family member, so a ffing mum can have a break sometimes.) and b) it's bloody hard in the early weeks to bf successfully! and c) bfing needs to be learnt by mother and child -ffing is less difficult as a method of feeding.

kickass -you sounds like you were treated very badly in being excluded from the bfing support group - at the one I attended in the early days of DS, there were a couple of mums who exclusively expressed - and those of us who weren't expressing were all very much in awe of them - it's got to be the most difficult way to feed a newborn, so I have huge admiration for you!!

Yuno - i say that, cos the only people i know who use fm only, did so after experiencing ALL the problems of bf, never managing to get there, or at least not enough to keep their child alive, and THEN turned to ff as a way to care for their child. dd & i (and 2 other mothers) were kept in hospital extra days in an effort to establish bf. we went through sore, cracked nipples, bleeding nipples, leaking nipples, latching problems, mastitus & who knows what else. and STILL we ended up ff. THEN we faced the joy of having to express milk, AND sterilise bottles, store & warm milk etc. I even had to get up to express milk for an hour, then get up again to feed dd the milk (warming it, checking it etc)

i honestly have only ever met 1 mother who said she didn't bf cos she didn't want to.

i'm sure there are loads who do a mix or swap over to ff after several weeks/months etc, but to assume that those who ff haven't even attempted bf, but just went for the 'easy' option of ff completely ignores the trauma that many women face when they attempt, but 'fail' to bf.

kveta - how do you know that they are predominantly ff? i ask cos dd would have looked like ff, but i expressed milk, then gave her a bottle. then, as supply dwindled, i did a mix of ff & bf.

i just think that there's kind of an assumption that mothers who ff do so because they somehow didn't bother enough (a bit like 'too posh to push for cs assumptions). i don't think we can dismiss those mothers so easily.

and it's not like non-bf mums' groups are saying 'you can only come in if you ff 100%'. I'd like to think that groups were open & inclusive enough that all parents could attend & discuss a variety of feeding methods (or the current political news, if they prefer), with emotional/practical support being available where needed.

I have known FF mums who went to BF groups, and were happy and welcome there.

And certainly any well-trained person who works helping mums to BF would be happy to talk through, with an FF mum, what went wrong with BF, or how she's feeling about it.

Most mums who formula feed, started out wanting to breastfeed. Many of them ended up breastfeeding for less time than they wanted to, and are not happy about it.

There are some mums who mean to formula-feed from birth. Their body, their choice.

because the women I know who expressed would always tell us it was EBM. And the formula feeders tended to add water to powdered milk before a feed or open a carton. Not sure who makes these assumptions re formula feeding.

I'm a bit sick of friends who ff telling me I should be ffing by now, saying it'll solve my sleep problems, 1 even told me it's got better vitamin content than bm. I've yet to tell anyone they should be bfing, mainly because it's none of my business! In other words, you can't win no matter what you do for your child!

I've also had several well meaning busybodies friends tell me that I shouldn't go back to work when DS is so young (he was 7 months when i went back p/t), as I'm missing out on him, he's going to suffer etc. I didn't have a choice in the matter. I started off as a SAHM, but had to become a WOHM. There are no support groups for WOHMs, and there's an assumption that we don't love our kids enough to stay at home with them - but tough, it's the way I have to live my life, and I just have to suck it up really.

ooh, kveta, i'm there with you on the work thing. no-one asked dh why he went back to work - he was even there for part of my labour!

the majority of parents make the decision they think are best, and i think most of them are fairly well informed. it's amazing how even the most slobbish of persons has a priority overhaul when their dc arrive.

it would be nice if people did a bit less interfering/helping though.

right must go to bed - it's nearly 3 am here. eek!

Trying to address the original post. The negatives you associate with ff imo are inconviences. Mothers are given relevant information at the hospital/MW visits and even HV. Also the problems don't change with time.

I guess for these reasons there is not the requirement for specialised support that a bf group provides. The annoyances can also be discussed with mums in general groups (i.e. help deal with guilt/practicalities sp?) i.e. don't involve physical demonstrations and require qualified advice.

It might be harder in some respects, but it doesn't have the worries that bf does that problems will impact on health of the baby. Until BF becomes as normal as FF, and knowledge becomes wide spread again then unfortunately BF groups are needed.

You can think it is as widespread, and who knows maybe you live in a statistically anomalous area

but

national stats show that mist babies are ff by 6 weeks, a proportion that increases to nearly all by 6 months

it is not the cultural norm in most places

bf mothers especially first time mothers need to be able to access trained support in order to continue

that is not to say that ff mothers don't also need support but are their needs best met at a bf support group?

At six weeks the rate of exclusive breastfeeding was 22 per cent in England compared with 13 per cent in Northern Ireland, while at four months rates of exclusive breastfeeding were twice as high in England (8 per cent) compared with both Northern Ireland and Wales (4 per cent). By six months rates were negligible in all countries.

From nhs 2005 feeding info

I do think - and I expect a lot of people on this board agree - that people who switch to ff after problems, or like kickassangel, who end up giving EBM in a bottle after problems - absolutely need support and it can be an emotionally lonely place for them to be. There's certainly a case for them being welcomed to a bf support group (though I can also see that in areas where there are few public spaces where bf mothers can bf comfortably, keeping the group for bf mothers only is a way to protect that support - I don't think there can be a blanket rule about these things).

This is not what the OP was about, however. The OP was having a moan about formula being portrayed as 'evil' (where?) and about formula feeders being excluded from 'important social and supportive events' ( where?) and being treated (in general) as 'lazy and selfish who don't care about their baby's wellbeing' (where?). I say 'in general' as you will always find some loon who is rude and uncaring somewhere. The OP clearly meant 'in general', I think.

This chip-on-the-shoulder resentment and imagined exclusion just isn't justified.

Well I'm glad after the initial flaming (which kind of proved my point ) that some more balanced points of view came out. I was feeling extra pissed about it last night so I apologise to those mumsnetters who took my use of the word 'evil' as literal - we clearly need an emoticon for 'giving my opinion' rather than 'quoting from literature'! But TBH, that was how the information in the book came across to me.

I did end up ff DC1 but not without trying to bf, failing to express, despite getting lots of help from the staff to do so. But she wasn't getting any food, she ended up on a feeding chart while we were in hospital becasue the staff recognised there was a problem and when we got home, I made the decision to ff because my primary concern was that she was fed. It wasn't an easy or comfortable decision to make. But you get absoultely no support or advice from any medical professional about ff. They refuse to give any because bf is the preferred method of feeding. For a new mum, this can be quite difficult. All my friends bf and had access to bf groups, clinics etc where we live - there was absolutely nothing geared up to ff mums. When one new mum I knew gave up bf for numerous reasons, she rang me to ask about ff because there was no-one else she could ask.

I completely accept that bf is the best for the baby and it's right that bf mums should get support. But what I'm trying to say is that there should also be support available to ff mums without them being made to feel that they are lazy, taking the easy option, or don't care about their baby's welfare.

Anyway, have a nice day everyone.

It's like any part of parenting. It is emotive, guilt-ridden and exhausting.

But the healthy thing to do ultimately is to realise that widespread negativity and criticism is perhaps coming from you and being projected upon those around you.

For example, I had a cs. It is something that I was devastated about and have suffered from ptsd ever since. It wasn't a choice. Without it my dd would have died. Now I've spent a good deal of time feeling excluded. The chats in postnatal groups and at toddler groups about post birth highs, natural labour, skin to skin etc. I believe once upon a time I interpreted it as smugness. An off the cuff remark about 'well at least your bits are intact' wasn't patronising, it was just a throwaway comment because really what can anybody say about labour/delivery that can't be interpreted the wrong way? What I mean is that I realised that my issues were just that. Mine. I wasn't being excluded or criticised by anybody but myself. The NCT and its promotion of natural labour and normal deliveries that once had me on my knees in tears is all about best practice and informed support for good outcomes. It isn't about me and the hand that fate dealt me.

BFing groups are the same. They aren't a criticism of the alternative or an exclusive club. They are what they are. They exist to serve the needs of a group of women who are doing something that is the normal and natural 'choice' but is not the societal norm. The stats are already woefully low, diverting the resources of bfing support to include support for ff will only affect that. There is no reason why a ff support group couldn't be set up but I suspect that it's not what you want op. If you crave the inclusion and social side of things, there are approximately 8 billion mother and baby groups out there. Unless I have misunderstood and you need specific help with certain aspects of ffing. Have you tried asking on here?

In terms of rl friends and acquaintances, I probably have about 8 people I'm in regular contact with who have babies under 6 months at the moment. 3 are bfing, one tried to bfeed and switched to ff after a couple of weeks (wasn't bothered), 1 is mixed feeding (mainly ff), 3 chose to ff from the beginning. I think that's actually quite a high ratio of bfers though, nationally it doesn't work out like that.

maxpower, why don't you set up a ff support group if you feel there's a genuine need for them? What support do you feel they could offer (genuinely interested)? Because the ff instructions I presume are on the tin? My birth to 5 books and other leaflets from the mw/hv all have info on sterilising. Do you mean emotional support? That's what most most groups are about in the end anyway. Just a general postnatal group (on here or in rl) is a collection of women struggling along together.

Believe me, you don't want to hijack the bf support groups in the hope of finding it a lively social occasion. It's mainly crying, cracked nipples and desperation. You're looking for baby yoga or massage or tiny talk or jo jingles or hang your baby from a tree and make whale noises groups. Something like that. There are millions.

Ok, just a couple of final points, them I'm going to leave you all to it.

I'm not feeding a baby right now so this is not an immediate issue for me. Nor do I have displaced feelings which I'm redirecting at bfeeding mums in some sort of jealous manner. I'm also not suggesting that resources are directed away from bf mums.

I'm now wondering if this is something more related to where I live. Round here, the only clubs/groups/meet ups advertised are for bfeeding mums. When I was ff, I felt like these were not the place for me not only for the reasons suggested by PC ! As there were apparantly no other groups to go to, it meant that I missed out on the opportunity to meet and spend time with other new mums, not only to talk about feeding issues, but all sorts of other things as well. I can't imagine that bf groups only talk about bfeeding - I'm sure other aspects of parenting are discussed. As illustrated by the new mum I referred to in my previous post, there are ff mums who need some advice and support but health professionals refuse to provide it. I read a post on MN last night from someone concerned that their SIL was force feeding her ff baby by making him finish every last bit of his bottle. These sorts of issues could be addressed if there was also support in place for ff mums.

OP I wonder if you don't mean that ALL mother's need support in the job of mothering? And that you feel that bf mothers get that support at bf groups from which ff mothers are excluded?

At my local bf support group, started and run solely by other volunteer mums we have a couple mums that attend although they exclusively ff. They all started off bf and both had to stop for a variety of reasons. They were very upset about having to stop bf and their continued acceptance by the rest of us has helped them deal with their feelings. However, the group does exist to help mums who have trouble or concerns with bf and we do not discuss ff and it's difficulties at the group.

were there no mother and baby groups? NCT? sure start? toddler group?

There are tons of parent and baby groups of various sorts. Why do we need a 'feeding' group? Surely, as has been pointed out,BF groups are to support women who have made that choice and er,,,, need support.

The group I went to was great but tbh I can't see what a FF mother would have gained from going. If you want a chat and tea and biscuits there are lots of other places to go.

It amazes me that when there is something in place for 'the minority', everyone wants to jump on the band wagon!

NO other comment just wondered most people use the ff is less common and more lonely than bf because most women try and fail at breastfeeding.

Do they? what is the bf starting percentage at birth does anyone know? (I happen to know a few women who only intended to bf colostrum only and many who did not wish to bf at all) I mean is it as most ff say that most women start to bf and fail by 6weeks down to 22%. I have to admit for every 100 mothers I meet 99 are ff. Most are ff in my area by choice (but then our bf rate is 30% at birth). Because of this I find it hard to believe when people say every one they knew bf. So can someone give me the overall uk stats for breastfeeding at birth please?

Slushy - I think it's quite high in immediate newborns (appprox 75%) but that is probably misleading as many women will stop as soon as they get out of hospital, many of whom will have had no intention of carrying on so perhaps a better way of measuring "drop off" would be to compare 1 week rates with 6 months rates.

Breastfeeding in the UK is hugely stratified along social lines, so if you are a middle class, professional over 30 you may find that a majority of your "mummy peers" breastfed for a considerable time, but this would not be reflective of the whole UK population.

However, this is also another problem with bf "benefit" stats. eg Does breastfeeding make babies more intelligent or are breastfed babies more intelligent because they tend to have middle class parents, who tend to be more intelligent and intelligence is genetic?

Who knows?

Great post Thebride I have wondered this myself as dp was bf and is a lot more intelligent (degree standard) than his brother or sister who failed GCSE but I know bf does not make that much difference 3 iq points is it not so wondered was it just luck of the draw.

maxpower, you were not flamed. If you think the somewhat sarcastic posts (mine included) were a flaming, then I can only assume you are new to the internet.

You posted a negative, resentful, chippy post with ridiculous claims (ff = wrong & evil; ff mothers treated as lazy and selfish) and people answered in a fairly light-hearted way, challenging you to match your claims with some facts. Which you have failed to do - 'cept now you say this is how it came across to you.

I have already said that women who are sad about not breastfeeding need support.

I actually don't believe you when you say there are no groups and activities open to ff mothers in your area.

TheBride: good studies about bf and intelligence make sure they control for the background and inheritance of the family the babies come from. Results vary - between 3 and 10 IQ points, I think. It's not life changing for most people, but would make a difference at the lower end, where a few points could make the difference between, say, being literate, or living without a full time carer.

slushy: there was a link to UK bf stats earlier in the thread.

Just wanted to add that many mums post genuine ff posts on this board and they are always responded to with acceptance by other ff mums and I have never seen someone say to the posters, 'well, you should have bf, then you wouldn't have to ask this question.'

I have, however, seen threads where the OP has asked for help with bf and where someone has said, 'well done for getting to 2 mnths/weeks/days/hours. There is no shame in moving to formula and it will make your life so much easier' (I am obviously paraphrasing here).

Which mum do you think needs more support in her feeding choice?