Do you think attitudes will ever change?

[tyler80]

From another forum I frequent (not parenting based, very male) but perhaps more indicative of the general mindset?

"Agree with the don?t fixate on breast feeding point, My Missus went mental trying to get it to work, if you can great but most women have some trouble, almost all supplement it with formula, Not all women are Super-lactating, Earth mothers types, and in all honesty bottle fed babies aren?t growth stunted, midget, thickies like the ?Brest is Best? brigade would have you believe, Obviously Dad can share the feeding workload with formula which is actually a massive help, we wound up doing shifts early on and it meant that she actually got some sleep?"

Do you think we can ever get to the point where breastfeeding is considered normal?

But I don't think anyone is judging.

Stating facts and offering support is not judging!

I had to battle guilt over my 'failure' to feed DS, but came to realise that the only person making me feel guilty was ME. Not breastfeeding nazis, or the breast is best brigade, or any of the rather perjoratively named organisations that don't actually exist.

oops, posted too early.

FFing is, do not forget, the normal way to feed a baby in this country, by frequency of choice.

I also think that is why the hackles rise when people bring them up - because they are NOT an actual organisation, every singe woman who supports breastfeeding in an active way feels that she is being lumped in with this mythical but offensive group.

So we get narky

you can't differentiate, which is why, on here for example when people ask about formula or say they're thinking of stoppin bf or whatever people do tend to come in and point out that formula is sub-optimal

i'd rather tell someone who already knows and get my head bitten off, than not tell someone who might feel bad about her decision later

I formula fed ds1 from about 4.5 months. I still feel bad about it. I had a whole load of people pile in with the "you've done so well" "if you'r ehappy he'll be happy"
well i WASN'T happy. I'd have loved to have had more support, some answers to why he was struggling to feed and more info on why formula is not best for babies.
I switched because I felt I had to to make my baby happy...

I KNOW that I didn't give him the absolute best start I could have done. but instead of moaning about people being "negative" about formula I'm trying to help people who are in similar situations to me

My personal view is that the art of breastfeeding has disappeared where a female would observe bfing as part of every day life. Suppose I was lucky in that I grew up with lots of extended family, and there was always someone who was b/fing at some stage. And if there were any problems, females in the family would be on hand to discuss, as in, 'Oh, he's a biter, you have to speak to Aunt Emilia as she had a biter too...' Some of my family stopped at 6 months exactly and some carried on. Tended to go in cycles. My great grandmother said she carried on longer as she was a bit vague about keeping track of the ages of all of her 10 children. My great aunt said b/fing a toddler wasn't good as they couldn't be independent, which started a whole family debate and my grandmother stuck up for me and said, 'we know more now...'

So, every woman who does b/f, then it's at least a start.

I think that's a good point, all these normal parts of life are hidden away in private in our society, whereas in the past and in different communities they are out on view.

yes, Dolly - every time I quietly feed my toddler in a public place I think that maybe I am helping to normalise this. Sometimes I do feel a bit self-conscious because a very few people do make negative comments or give me funny / disapproving looks but mostly nobody bats an eyelid and I think that's great.

You are helping I think greenbananas. I have been thinking that way a lot since having DS2, have even fed standing at a bus stop. It isn't the job of nursing mothers to hide away, other people need to get used to it.

As a previous poster said though, every time a woman BFs her baby a shareholder loses a sale so I can't see the pressure easing up anytime soon.

"And my experience of the NHS has been very good. The London hospital I gave birth in promotes breastfeeding really well imo - information given during my pregnancy, lots of posters in all waiting rooms/communal ward spaces, no formula given (you have to bring your own with you if you plan to FF)"

How is this good? This is the negativity to FF others have referred to; from professionals keen to push the agenda, not BF ing mothers.

I have to say I think BF is normal and have never seen anyone criticised. Equally FF is acceptable and no one has criticised me for it.

Thisisyesterday - it was an informed choice to FF. How patronsing to suggest that because my opinion differs to yours my choice is not informed.

Lola, professionals are keen to push bf as it is the optimal choice for mothers and babies. Why would they do anything else?

I've only ever had positive experiences whilst bf ds or dd. I feel very sad that I did not manage to bf dd for as long as I wanted to but certainly no one ever reacted negatively to me ff her.

Just to clarify - I don't mind BF being pushed or encouraged - I do object to FF being banned as in the quote from a previous post.

Maybe I'm wrong, LolaKnickers, but I thought that hospitals didn't supply formula because they can't be seen to be endorsing one brand of formula over another? Nor to suggest that one brand is "better" than another (when they are basically the same). It's nothing to do with "banning" it in order to promote BF-ing, I think.

When I had my daughter, they stocked every brand and you asked for the one you wanted, so they didn't endorse anything. What's the problem with that? They could put up all the posters in the world to promote BF but I would still have FF; a ban would just have lead to me not being able to give sterilised milk therefore putting my daughter's health at risk.

I happen to disagree that BF is the optimal feeding choice; I think it's a neutral choice. Please don't respond with research on the benefits of BFing - I think that debate is a little tired - I'm making the point that it's my opinion for my child and I couldn't give a hoot what other people feed their children. So maybe on that basis any negativity (on both sides) washes straight over me, getting back to the original post. But I really have not witnessed any of this perceived negativity from BFers or FFers!

Ah, ok then. As I said, I wasn't sure.

I have no desire to respond one way or the other about the benefits of BF-ing/risks of FF-ing, whatever. As you say, your baby, your choice.

I think the 'brest it best' campain is not helping. Brestfeeding should be protrayed as normal and formula as seconed best (well the WHO actualy put's it at fourth best). No other mamual would feed there young with anothers species milk (in this case cows milk). So why do we think giving modified cows milk to our young is so aceptable.

The main reasion probably being that we've been told for generations that FF is aceptable, that espicaly in this country vitorian attiuded was if you could affort it you didn't feed your own children (in there case they used wet nurses). So it's been ingrained into our socitiy for a number of generations. Formula feeding at one point was seen as better, and as it was expensive if you could afford to do it then that was the best for your child. Espically as formula companies pour so much money into advertising.

Just so I don't start a heated debate LolaKnickers if you know all the facts and still chose to FF then that is your right and I wouldn't want to take that right away from anyone.

I have no desier to force women to BF it's there choice, but it should be an informed choice. But the fact is most now choice to start BF but don't get the help and support they need to succsed. Which is why so many give up so soon.

It's still true that BF mum's are in the minority. and like many have pointed out we seem to be the one's who take a lot of flack. I've never seen a formula fed mum told to feed there baby in the tolites but it still happens a lot to BF mum's. You strugle with the early day's of BF then get constant comments on when are you going to stop. I stopped feeding DD in pubilc at about 16 months as I was made to feel it was unacceptable to feed a toddle in public. I know feel that was wrong I shouldn't have been made to feel like that. Next time I'll carry on without thinking abuot it and hopefully give other mum's the insperation to as well.

I think the article is offensive to ff as well as bf 'Not all women are Super-lactating, Earth mothers types,' implies that women who cant bf are not as good.

Happy mum happy baby is a load of crap particularly when applied to ff because most mums who have to ff are not happy about it.

I don't think bf aggressively attack ff I think it is in their own minds and I think most people think it is okay to attack bf because they have no guilt about having to ff so why would they feel bad about anything.

Also people say about hcp pushing bf enough where? I was not asked on either of my dc how I wanted to feed I was given no information not even a leaflet. I was admitted to hospital om dc1 at 36 weeks and I forced my obstetrician to write it on my notes so my baby was not given a bottle she was disgusted that none of this had been discussed with me. I knew nothing when I gave birth of feeding either way. I had to muddle through and figure it out.

On dd I again was not asked I forced for it to be written on my notes.

Yes, slushy, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about HCPs 'pushing' breastfeeding. The midwife who gave my antenatal class told us all about the joys of formula feeding - she gave the impression that bf was difficult and most of us would end up ff. She said 'breastfeeding is definitely best for baby' and then that mums who don't breastfeed shouldn't feel guilty...

I was desperate to bf DS in hospital but had really crap advice and on day 2 he was given formula against my will. I'll always wonder if it triggered his allergies and I'm still really cross about it. When I got home, I had no problem bf and am still feeding him at 21 months.

I know that some women choose to ff, and I totally respect that but also think it's sad that so many women want to bf and think they can't. The most common reason women give for being 'unable' to bf is "not enough milk", and that's so often because of bad advice which inteferes with supply (e.g. 4 hourly feeds/expecting 8 week old babies to sleep through the night).

If all women got proper, practical support to bf when they needed it, there might not be so many mums feeling defensive about their decision to ff and we could all respect each other a little more.

From the ante-natal classes I went to, it seems that the HCPs didn't want to rock the boat by promoting bfing too much. They gave a short (about 5 mins) talk on bfing and gave out a stack of leaflets for us to read in our own time at home. After the 5 minute long talk the midwife asked people to put up their hands if they were planning to bf their babies. Out of about 45 women, around 10 put up their hands.

Of course, once the babies were born, this view may have changed, but all the leaflets in the world don't replace genuine support and advice that bf = natural.

I bf my 4.5 month old DS, not sure when I plan to stop. Might stop at 6 months or carry on longer.

I've posted on other threads that I live in a country with one of the lowest bfing rates in the world. I know many many women who are pregnant or who have children and they know nothing about bf. Some friends threw out any leaflet they recieved about bf, as they just "didn't want to be bothered" (their words).

I'm not really sure what my argument is, apart from to say that the debate goes into how families educate their children in preparation for them having children, women being comfortable to bf in public etc.

I was at a private garden party this weekend where a couple had their 8 week old baby daughter. Mum had brought a bottle of expressed milk but her daughter wouldn't take it so they ended up going home to feed. So sad that she felt she couldn't feed there.

Agree with slushy that BFers don't attack FFers, but also the ther way round; FFers as individuals don't attack BFers.

I think all the negativity comes from HCPs, though interestingly not with a consistent negative approach (if that makes sense) - some HCP's don't provide enough support for mothers who want to breast feed (fear of pushing it too much), yet some take the equally objectionable stance of banning formula, as referred to by a previous poster. Neither approach is helpful.

The issue is whether attitudes have changed and BF - including in public - is accepted. I think they have and it is. Of course, you'll never convinve everyone but that doesn't mean there's a general problem and BFers are subject to negativity.

LolaKnickers, no-one has banned formula in the previous example. The hospital just refused to pay for it.

And there really is a general problem with how BF is perceived, b/c if it were perceived as a more important and positive choice, and if women were better supported to do it, then BF rates would be much higher. That would be an unequivocally good thing.

You may not want to BF your child, but it is in the general public's interests that as many mothers as possible are supported to do so, because BF children are, on average, healthier than non-BF children, and the gains are biggest for those people who suffer the greatest health inequalities at present, especially people living in deprivation.

We need to be clear about these facts. And about saying that one of the reasons that BF'ing in the UK is so damned hard is that the culture is just not set up to support it. To take just one example: many mothers only see BFing for the first time when they themselves try it. Contrast that with many developing world cultures, where women see BFing taking place from early childhood and learn about it by talking and asking questions and watching closely. This kind of normalisation of BFing is obviously in no sense a panacea, but equally obviously it has a dramatic impact on women's understanding and confidence, and thus on BF rates.

Agree with slhilly above.
But bear in mind it's not "just" the developing countries, all of Scandinavia finds BF perfectly normal and the vast majority of women BF at least until 6 months. Therefore women can get all the support they want for their first baby, from HCPs and family.

My mom was from Finland and never ever mentioned BF as a negative thing. Ever since I was a little girl I had in mind I would BF my babies... and when I had my DD, I was shocked to see all the "formula pressure" around me in the UK, especially my family in law, mainly centered around "that's too much work for you, let your DH help with formula"... Never encouraging me in giving the best for her as long as I wanted, I felt pretty lonely!

Not sure why there is such a strong formula culture in the UK, but as someone said above feeding your baby is personal but needs to be an informed choice.

Once mothers have been truly informed about the benefits of breastmilk, and given proper support after childbirth, I think formula, at least for newborns, should logically become less frequent in the UK.

yes, there is a strong formula culture in the UK. At the bf support group I go to, around half of the mums are from other countries and some feel shocked and baffled by attitudes to bf in this country. Women here can feel under enormous pressure to conform to the UK ff culture, especially as rammed down their throats by helpful English MILs.

Ha! I did mixed feeding from 4 weeks and full ff from 8 weeks and never got a night feed out of dh!
And...joking apart that's how it should be. I am not working, he is, I should do the childcare. I think women that do have their men doing the night feeds are being unreasonable.

As an aside, glancing at my happy, healthy, giggling 14 week old dd I struggle to accept the idea that she is being raised in the 'fourth best way'. No doctor can tell the difference between a bf and ff baby and guidelines are aimed at third world babies.
WHO.... swine flu..???