20 week old feeding through the ngiht more now than when he was newborn - feeling like a failure

[bluesatinsash]

I'm so tired to even try and post a coherent question but DS2 is 20 weeks old and can go 3-4 hourly during the day BUT the last few weeks and last night as an example he was fed at:

6.45pm (35 mins)
9.45pm (20 mins)
11.55pm (10 mins)
2.30am (10 mins)
4am (10 mins)

He woke to start his day at 6.10am but was happy to lie with me until 7am for feed - neither bloody wonder as he was full of dark o'clock milk.

I've read everything on 4/5 month sleep regression but surely to God he does NOT need this amount of milk?? I'm too scared to try and settle him by other means (rocking him in chair) as he has very loud cry and would wake his brother.

I've tried feeding him more regularly during the day but he is not hungry and ends up snacking.

I'm so very very down about this. Just broke down in front of my Mum there when she came to pick DS1 up for playgroup.

Do I try and re-settle him if he wakes before a 3 hour gap during the night?

He used to go say from 7pm to midnight or 10.30pm to 2am but those days are gone.

DS1 was on bottle at 12 weeks and sleeping through at 16 so have nothing to compare to.

I'm NOT expecting DS2 to sleep through but four night wakings is just unbearable

He was 8lb 3oz at birth and a steady 60 percentile on weight chart, not too huge not too skinny..

HELP!!!!

Horrible to feel so down about this - and a 'failure' ...not surprising you feel so wretched.

Would it help to re-look at your ds's pattern and see this is not four night wakings, but atually only two?

This pattern is absolutely normal for a baby of this age. Most people would not count the 9.45 and 11.55 feeds as 'night feeds'. It's very usual for a feed to happen late at night (the 11.55 one) and if it's easier for you, you could try to bring this one on a bit earlier (maybe by feeding at 8 pm and then 11 pm) so you are not actually asleep when he wakes for a feed.

At 20 weeks, most babies will not be happy with rocking to sleep, and it would not be very safe to settle him like this in a chair, not while you are tired. Work out the easiest way for you to get most rest and sleep - this could be co-sleeping (following the safety rules) or bringing him into bed and feeding lying down (ditto with the rules).

Hope this helps - and believe me, he is feeding and waking normally.

How on earth are you a failure? You're feeding this incredibly hungry and demanding child - you're a roaring success, not a failure!

I think you'll get much better advice than any I could give - but I do remember from when my two were tiny that the times when I felt "I can't do this any more, I am going to collapse" were usually the times right before a difficult patch started to ease off

oh lovey you are so not a failure

this is all normal ad you are doing such a great job

my almost 8mo dd2 has been like this for the past while, it is so wearing i know, and i also have a scholl aged child and a husband who drives a lot for work who both need their sleep so i understand feling the need to keep the baby quiet

growth spurts are common at this age, as is a sleep pattern regression

feeding lying own is a godsend

my almost 8mo has been like this, so i empathise completely.

You're absolutely not a failure/ FWIW, we had exactly the same thing. DS went from being a chilled and happy sleeping 5 hours machine to a wakeful monkey. We're not quite back to 5 hour sleeps but the night feeds have dropped down now (6 mo) and I'm getting much more sleep!

Thanks for replying tiktok and greensleeves tiktok - I mistyped as I don't either class anytime before midnight as a 'night feed'. but some nights he can be up 1am/3am/5am..

greensleeves - if only!

I don't understand why he can go longer during the day - when he is active and alert than during the night . We did co-sleeping from birth until he was 3 months old as he was settled by then and 'only' needing fed @ 1am and 4am.. DH was in spare room for that time and it was nice to have him back as we're like ships in the night these days.. He couldn't sleep with me whilst I co-slept as felt unsafe but was v. supportive of me doing it. TBH I feel it would be s step back bringing him back in.

I've also got the 'baby whisperer' and 'contented baby' books ringing in my ears and that DS2 should be AT LEAST sleeping from 7pm-dream feed 10.30pm then onto 7am with maybe a 5am quick feed . I know to take this with pinch of salt but can't help use them as benchmarks and feel completely off kilter in comparison .

My Mum's back to help out and is very concerned about my mental health, not just today but the last few days and even weeks. She BF all three of us but is pleading with me to put him on a bottle for my sanity. she is also asking should I be weaning him as he is a sturdy boy but I'm wanting to wait until he is 6 months to the day as want to do BLW..

Even if I could get him to take one formula feed at night time, it would give me break. Just feel like throwing the baby out with the bathwater . Even if these wakings are normal I just can't cope with them day in day out, 20 weeks on. That's where my 'failure' feelings come from .

weaning him is unlikely to help, and bottlefed babies can wake a lot in the night too - neither weaning nor a bottle helped dd2 sleep any better i'm sorry to say not what you want to hear i know

you sound so much like me it's almost scary contant disturbed sleep is just awful and my heart goes out to you

my theory is that when they get to this age they are so busy taking things in during the day tha they don't feed enough and then they make up for it at night.

with dd2 this turned into a habit which we are just sorting now with the help of a dummy - how do you feel about dummies?

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, throw the books out!

I think like Tiger that they are so busy looking around during the day at this point that they are distracted from feeding.

Can you actively put more feeds in during the day rather than waiting until he is really letting you know he's hungry?

This really is so normal though, and if co-sleeping was working for you previously then I would carry on with that. Please don't look on it as a backward step - we didn't co-sleep at all until long past DS' first birthday but for a few months at that stage it was what we needed to do.

I can understand your DH sleeping in the spare room for co-sleeping with a newborn baby, but at 20 weeks they're generally more than capable of letting you know if you're infringing upon their space. So, unless your DH smokes or drinks there's no reason not to share. (But then we co-slept from 3 weeks when I got fed up of getting out of bed!)

I don't see how it could be a step backwards if it allows you to get more sleep and feel better.

I am obviously biased though I'd be dead on my feet today without co-sleeping... my daughter decided she wanted to wake every hour last night! (Not like her, mind you.)

Another thing that a friend had success with at around this same point was doing a double feed in the evenings either side of bathtime.

So I'm assuming your 6.45pm feed is the pre-bedtime one?

Can you try a feed at 6pm, then bath and then another after the bath?

I don't know if it helps at all bss but I'm in the same situation with ds who just turned 21 weeks. Last night he woke at 1am, 3am, 5am, 6am then 7am. He feeds at least 2 hourly during the day, sometimes he can't go longer than half an hour between feeds, I seem to get the longest time out of him if he's in the sling and we are out and about.

We are co-sleeping but it's still bloody hard. I had a doze this am once I;d taken dd to nursery and it's really helped me. Otherwise I think I'd be on my knees tbh.

bluesatinsash - the books you mention cannot possibly offer a 'benchmark', and you are right to take them with a pinch of salt. They are both wrong about what babies are capable of, and just as babies do not sit up, walk, talk, on the same day or even the same week or month, as each other, no one can say what babies 'should' be doing about sleep and feeding.

Honestly, it is much easier to try to work out how to make night times easier by accepting this is what the baby happens to need at the moment, and then developing a strategy to cope with it, rather than trying to ascertain why things are as they are, and then trying to change them. Adults can change their routines and expectations more easily than 5 mth old babies

Of course using formula is an option, but it's not the only one, and is not a certain way to change things, either (and nor is weaning). Making life easier for yourself at night is important - however you do it.

It may be that you need some help with your mental health too - how is your HV or GP to talk to?

Agree that co-sleeping is not a backwards step - how could it be, if it helps you feel less tired? That would be great progress

It sounds as if you have quite high expectations of yourself - you're comparing yourself and your life to books written by authors whose expertise is questionable (ahem), and seeing mothering as a sort of smooth, forward-facing trajectory where things progress ( = good) or go backwards (= bad)....and it's just not helping you at the moment

You're just normal - you're not a mother from a book and your baby isn't either. You are individuals with individual needs and patterns. You need sleep, and support, and encouragement, and sleep (again) and did I mention sleep ? Normal needs, normal individuality....

oh god agree, yes yes yes, throw those books out at the very least i would burn them

blue, sorry to see you're having a hard time (haven't been on the emmsy's thread for a while ). Would echo what the others are saying that you are actually doing brilliantly

Some babies just wake and feed more. If it is any consolation DS is now coming up for 8 months and he probably feeds 3/4 times a night, and always has. Typically 11pm, 1.30, 3.30, 5 and then 7am wakeup. He has teeth coming through now and has been waking more often and wanting a comfort boob to get back to sleep. I know it can be devastating to have such disturbed sleep (DD also comes in at least once a night, DP sees to her but it is still another wakeup). It won't last forwever though and you just have to do what it takes to get through it. For us that means a co-sleeper cot, feeding lying down, going to bed earlier and trying to ignore all the other people who claim their babies slept through from 6 days

You will get through this, and when you look back it will seem such a short time. Difficult to see when you are in the thick of it though.

dark o'clock milk made me laugh too

bluesatin - my DS (nearly 8 mo) is exactly like this even since he's been weaned I'm afraid However, we've introduced a dreamfeed and things have imrpoved - last night he was only up at 1 (for an hour) and 4 (for 20 minutes) (after a dreamfeed at 10), and then he got up at 6 for the day.

can you get your mum or DH to take both children away from you on a weekend morning so you can catch up on sleep? I found this incredibly helpful, just once a week, then another evening where I could go to bed early. We have used a dummy, still are using one, and for a while it was great for settling him, but now he runs it along the bars of his cot, which is bloody annoying! either that or he whines from behind it. still, it was useful when it worked!

Yes, the 4 month sleep regression can be this bad! My DD went from waking one (about 7-3-7) to waking 3 or 4 times between 7 & 7. It was exhausting.
After a while (it was weeks rather than days) she settled to two wakings which continued until she started eating food well (which as we BLW wasn't until around 9/10 months). Then she dropped to waking once, and then her food appetite upped at 1 yr and now she sometimes sleeps through 7-7, sometimes wakes early morning for a feed (and then sleeps in til 8 )
Of course this is a general rule - we still sometimes have a bad night for one reason or another!

I also had Gind Ford & BW and remember saying to DH, well according to Gina Ford she should be sleeping 7-7 by 6 months! This was pre-4 months when she was waking once a night.

Once I decided to do away with what she 'should' be doing, I was much happier.

Your baby will settle down again, just do whatever you need to do to get through it as painlessly as possible!

Thank you all for replying (Hi Lionstar )and its so reassuring to know I'm not the only one going through this and this is perfectly normal for 5 month olds . I only have DS1 to compare and as mentioned previously he was on bottle at 12 weeks (his choice, refused to feed off me, wrongly diagnosed reflux whole other thread on that one!) and sleeping through at 16 weeks.

The bottom line is that I am, and always have been since birth someone who needs alot of sleep. My lovely Mum (who has been here all morning, done my ironing and now taken boys out for two hours) had a terrible time getting me up in the morning and I used to say if I could buy a pill that made me more awake then I would pay over the odds for it.

So really this question should really have been posted in the mental health section as its the tiredness that is just killing me. I love feeding my darling boy, he is a miracle to me as had 2 mcs between boys and never thought I'd have him. I'm in a vicious circle of feeling so tired that I'm wishing him to grow up then feeling so guilty for thinking that that makes me feel so down and so on and so on. I also go back to work 7 weeks today and starting to feel anxious about the whole taking a bottle scenario... I only work 3 days and doing 2 unti Sept but its still creeping in.

In answer to some specificis:

dummies he took one to begin with but literally spat it out . He does suck his thumb and I'm hoping that can self soothe him in time to come.

co-sleeping - I can be in his room in 3 seconds flat and used to sit up to feed him anyway so would rather things remained.

bottle - wanted to introduce this at 10pm feed more so that I could go to bed at 7.30pm after boys and sleep until midnight rather than 10pm but although he took bottle in early weeks with EBM I got out of the way of expressing due to time/dealing with older DS1 and not producing enough milk to take me out the equation.

I do get to lie in Sat and Sunday mornings which is my life savour and I shudder to think how I would be without the amazing support I get from my family.

I've been crying pretty much all morning, but DS2 fed at 11am for 35 mins on the rocking chair in his nursery and I sat looking down at him and felt blessed.

My action plan is:

Go to bed early twice a week, even if its just another hour banked its still sleep.

Hope and pray to the gods that once he is on solids he wolfs them down and conks out like a drunk on a Sat night!

Remember this too will pass.

Thanks again x

I'm sooooooooooooo pleased you posted this. When I asked the HV she said wait til 6 mohts when they don't need night feeds.

that was very helpful

we can hold each others hands through this!
we shall overcome

not sure this will help but my little one started like this at 4 and a half months and she is still like that at almost 8 months.

It was a shock to the system at first but I seem to have kind of adapted to it, though we do now sort of co-sleep - she has the other side of the bed to me and I just move over to feed her then back over to my side afterwards.

no advice to give, just to reinforce that youare n't alone!

Hi blue - again, I can't help, but I'm in exactly the same position. And feeling very bad this morning as I had 'stern' words with my DS last night through very gritted teeth about 'pleeeaase go back to sleep'. Awful, because I know he doesn't understand and doesn't mean to be a pain!

We were down to once a night pre 16 weeks - and starting to get later and later in the night. Now? at 19 weeks last night I was up at 1.30, 3.30, 5... and that's not counting the feed at 11pm. It's the inconsistency I think that bothers me most - some nights he'll only wake once, then the next night, just when I'm starting to think it's getting better, it'll be 4 or 5 times.

I've actually had to be quite rude to people about early weaning - he's 75% so I've had the same problem with 'he's a big boy, you should wean and then he'll sleep through'.

Things I'm trying...

• feed as much as possible during the day (making bugger all difference so far!)
• get him used to taking the bottle again (I've got some Breastflow bottles which are better), so my DH can do a couple of night feeds with expressed milk at the weekends
• at least once a week get to bed early. I find that if I'm in bed by 8ish, I can get a couple of hours before his 'bedtime' feed, which makes a massive difference

(and the very occasional can of Coke - caffeine rules!

I can truly sympathise over the sleep thing. I think lack of sleep made me depressed and paranoid, and I am a person who does not actually need that much sleep. I need some though, and when you are continually woken it is really hard.

Is there any way that you could catch up on your sleep with your mother's help? I used to get dh to go out for a long drive with ds and then keep him away from me for as long as possible during the day to try and get a few extra hours now and then.

You have had lots of good advice which I can't add to, I just want to say you deserve congratulations for meeting your baby's needs so faithfully. I hate the way society makes us feel a failure for not having a 'good' baby (one who sleeps all night I mean ) when they should be supporting us in our mothering!

Oh goodness I have been there and bought the t-shirt with the four and five month sleep regression with my DS (another big boy on the 75th centile) who is now coming up to 9 months.
Try to ignore the early weaning brigade. DS's sleep settled down the week before we introduced food and now he only wakes for one feed and one other time when my DH soothes him.
I was hoping food would make him sleep through, but it only had its wonderful snooze inducing effect for a single week. I definitely wouldn't rush to add solids as some sort of sleep aid. All you'll end up with is sleep deprivation and MORE washing up
What we did find helpful to break the constant night wakings (one night he managed 10, 12, 2, 4 5 and six and I thought I might actually die of exhaustion) was for one night for my DH to go to him for all wakings apart from one which I was fairly sure he needed. I expected loads of tears but from the very first night he was fine with that and we now only have a couple of wakings on a typical day.
If it's any consolation the reason your DS's feeding so poorly during the day and has rescheduled it for dark o'clock is because he's a particularly bright boy who's just too interested in the world around him. That's our alibi and we're sticking to it!

Anyway, really, really good luck and remember this too shall pass!

Another one here as well! Not sure if it's coincidence or not but is also a boy..........................

I could never understand the concept of 'waking them up for a dream feed'. How could you wake up a baby who either wasn't asleep or was always awake at this time anyway for a feed?

Will be thinking of you at 0120, 0330, 0530 as I sit in the dark with a little head bobbing up and down.

This too shall pass..............

Sorry if I've missed this but can you nap at all during the day? I find that after a really bad night feeding lying down at about 4ish when we can both have a snooze really helps.

I found a nap with baba was vital too - DH took DS for his first awake time of the day while I dozed, then he handed him over for his nap, which he took next to me and fed while he dozed and I dozed. I think you have another DC so probably not possible, but it was what we came up with having no other family close to lend a hand.

Anyway really good luck all those enduring the sleep regression weeks - and you are NOT failures!