Low Milk Supply in Afternoon and Evening ...Tiktok ???!!!!

[lovinit]

Would it make sense for me to use a formula feed at 5-6pm and then express for the 10pm feed once milk supply has built up ?

Also, DD2 is 4wks and seems to only take 10-15 mins for day feeds and night feeds. Is this OK ? She never sucks for longer unless it is to soothe in the eraly morning. I guess that I am hopign Tiktok is here to answer this !

Hi Tiktok - not offended - just surprised

Just had a quick search, but couldn't quickly find what you are referring to.

I'm interested that you say I'm wrong - what do you think my problem was that day ? Yes please send me the details if you can.

Hi Tiktok, I realisee now that you must be thinking that I am neurotic and paranoid ...and yes you are right ! I am going to trust my body and assume millk supply is good ... However, I do not understand why you support babies suckling on the breast in order to be comforted when they do not need to be fed ... How do they then stop from wanting the breast at every waking point during the day and night ?

Try this or this

mojomummy.

As for what happened that one single day, there may have been lots of reasons why your baby was unsettled. You can't empty your breasts when fully bf - there is always milk there. You could have put the baby back on the breast after she had been calmed and comforted with a cuddle. Just because a baby takes a bottle readily, it doesn't mean she is desperately hungry. Some babies suck on anything.

Put it this way: there is no reason why a protein rich lunch would make a difference to milk supply in the evening.

Maternal diet can impact on breastfeeding, but this is over years and years - chronically under-nourished mothers in poor cirumstances in the developing world who get pregnant at a young age, or who have serial pregnancies/miscarriages may find it hard to sustain exclusive bf in their young babies and there is concern that these babies may go short of iron (because they have not laid down much iron in utero). It's in these circs that some experts feel their babies need solids a little sooner.

But this is a million miles away from the Western mother who goes short of a cheese sandwich on one single day

lovinit - I don't think you are neirotic amd paranoid!!

You say: "However, I do not understand why you support babies suckling on the breast in order to be comforted when they do not need to be fed ... How do they then stop from wanting the breast at every waking point during the day and night ?"

Well.....it is normal in a newborn to need comfort and to enjoy comfort, and the breast is designed to give this along with mik (because the baby is held close and talked to and loved, as he is fed). Babies cannot separate out the need for comfort and closeness from the need for food and drink. Accepting this and responding to it is normal parenting behaviour, and it is not 'creating bad habits'. It is responding to the babies' needs as they are expressed in this typical newborn way.

I have said on another thread that babies often wear nappies. We don't then think 'this is terrible - we are teaching our babies they can pee and poo into their underwear!' We accept that the baby has no control over bladder and bowel (please don't respond with an infant training point....) and that he will gradually aquire this with our gentle, patient and responsive support and teaching.

Babies whose need for comfort is responded to do not develop into babies who are feeding every waking moment. Instead, they become confident that their needs are important and that people love them enough to respond to them. For more on this, see Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt, which explains the neuroscience and biochemistry of parental response, and how it protects mental health in later years.

[Just to explain the 'infant traing' reference - this is a nod to the fact that some people start doing without nappies from very young, by 'catching' the wee/poo. I didn't want to get into a discussion about that idea]

Thanks Tiktok - all very complicated studies going on there.

We'll have to agree to disagree - there really was no milk left in my boobs that 'session'. Also I gave no indication of my height/weigh ratio or what I ate that day.

Also eating a little more during the day did help me & I successfully BF for 2 years. My friend also increased her daily calorie intake & this helped her milk. Although this may not fit in with your experiences, it is my (our) experience & if anyone benefits from hearing that, all the better

" there really was no milk left in my boobs that 'session'"
How did you know, mm?

"My friend also increased her daily calorie intake & this helped her milk"

How did she know? In what way - quantity of milk?

I am not being confrontational, but wanting to know!

I am not saying that anything does or doesn't fit in with my experiences. I'm looking at the evidence, which in its turn looks at many experiences and at the physiology of how it all works.

But we are all individuals, and our perception of things differs.

Even so - lovinit did not/does not have a problem with supply, so eating a mountain of lunch is not going to help her

Hi tiktok, I knew because DD was unhappy (fed for a good couple of hours, on & off) & when I checked, by squeezing, nothing came out. I was quite good at squeezing, so knew they were 'empty'.

Friend (quite lean) found breasts were fuller & DD fed much better. Neither of us are/were bigger eaters. I liken it to producing skim milk, rather than full fat milk. Of course we are all different & different things affect different people.

Appreciate milk is supply & demand etc, but some food, water & rest are all instrumental factors. That day I had also been running around alot. When (fingers crossed ) I BF this baby, I will be very sure to eat sensibly & at regular intervals.

Mojomummy, how do you explain people with little access to food being able to breastfeed successfully?

I think it's better if I bow out of theis MM.

None of what you say is an indication of not having enough/any milk, either in you or your friend (including the squeezing - no matter how good you are at it! Your baby does not get milk by squeezing).

Skim milk and full fat milk? Fat content of mothers' milk does not vary at all with her diet - there is a ton of research on this. Fat content varies with the degree of fullness of the breast. Fuller breast = less fat content in milk. Breast with less milk in = more fat content in milk.

With milk production, there is a lot of vetinary research, much of which applies to all mammals, including us. We have known for some time what the variables are in fat content, and it has nothing to do with the mummy mammal's diet or how often she rests. That goes for cows, goats and us

Truly, rest has nothing to do with it at all - only in so far as if you are running round, you are deffo not on the sofa feeding the baby. And without feeding the baby often, you won't make milk.

I won't post any more on this unless I am asked to. My experience is that people become very attached to powerful ideas, and resist the information that shows they are not well-founded. It doesn't bother me if you have been helped with a protein lunch and a rest with your feet up, mojomummy - it sounds very nice! But as a 'recipe' for bf happiness, it doesn't stand up

Tiktok - if you're still about can I ask you to reassure me about something else? My ds adores bosoms far more than his sister ever did-he uses them for all kinds of reasons apart from food - comfort, snacks, winding down, going to sleep, entertainment (he smiles at them) etc I'm trying really really hard not to worry about this BUT am having some trouble convincing myself that I'm not producing a baby who will only go to sleep after sucking. Is it true to say that the older he gets, the more interested he will become in the world and less so in me (for everything) ? (he's only little - 9 weeks)
Thanks Tiktok - appreciate all your advice.

Hi Hunkermunker, which people are you talking about ?

Hi Tiktok, no one said sitting with my feet up having protein at lunch was a recipe for sucessful breastfeeding !!

I'm talking about one day for me where I had difficulties. You disagree, that's fine. I was there you weren't, that's fine.

One size doesn't fit all & if there wasn't enough milk, there wasn't really wasn't any. DD couldn't get any & neither could I. Apart from this occasion we were fine. That's it.

Yes, he's still young, welshmum....9 weeks is far too young to be worrying about his dependency on you How lovely that you are so versatile and you can make him smile, laugh, sleep, drift off, relax....and fill his tum at the same time and make him grow healthily and beautifully

He will find all sorts of other things in the world to enable him to do all those things.

If it gets to the stage where he really, really cannot sleep without sucking, and you feel he is beyond the stage where you can tolerate this, you can teach him to get to sleep in other ways. Just as he will learn that other things can make him smile - and some of this will be your loving, gentle teaching.

The fact that breastfeeding is so comforting is one of the very best things about it IMO! Getting a baby through her jabs is a LOT easier IME if you latch her on first.
As for on all day and all night, my dd is now nearly six months old and is so interested in the world around her - yelling at and flirting with complete strangers all day! - that I can hardly grapple her to my bosom these days.

I always found my babies were hungry early evening ,I put it down to me rushing around trying to get stuff done in the afternoon! but then someone told me that that was a load of rubbish!!!

mandy, I don't think it's rubbish. It could be your babies were asking for a bit of relaxing mummy time after tolerating you rushing round and 'ignoring' them a bit

My experience was that this stage lasted until about 3 mths.

well I never did ignore them!! jobs can wait!!! just thought milk was rubbish cos I had been busy!! maybe they were just hungrier in the evening!!!

No, I didn't mean you were ignoring them! But babies are aware when they are not getting full-on attention
No evidence that milk quality is affected by mothers rushing around - there is no reason why it would be.

(there is an ancient and not very good study that looked at lactic acid in mothers' milk after vigorous exercise - it's produced after serious muscular exertion and reaches the milk. But I don't suppose your household jobs involved high impact aerobics! In any case, there was no quality effect on the milk)

therefore thinking hungry baby due to me doing jobs was rubish...as I said

Hi tiktok - need more of your wonderful advice on breastfeeding ....

breast are itchy and i have twinges about an hour after DD2 has fed on them. i've looked in her mouth for white spots and there are none so i'm fairly confident its not thrush, but what do you think it could be??? the twinges don't hurt but can be uncomfortable but don't last.

also DD2 is still doing the 20 mins on, 20 mins off breast thing (ie feed 10-20 mins, then falls asleep but wants breast again). am i reading the signs wrong - could she need winding or comforting instead?? she seems to calm down better once she's on the breast again. i'm so worried that i wont have enough milk because i'm switching breasts after 1 hour of this routine and they both seem to get 'full' or rather hard about the same time.

what is the background to single breast feeds???

btw my DD2 is only just 3 weeks old so very young and i'm happy to go with the flow but as any mum, concerned that her irratic feeding will leave me with no milk (unlikely i know because they leak like anything)....

your advice is much appreciated ... anyones for that matter!!

not an expert but when mine were tiny I fed oneside then changed nappy to wake them up a bit then fed the other side. As for tingly boobs maybe they just think baby wants feeding again. they need time to adjust and settle too!!!

tiktok - read in more detail about cluster feeding and it sounds very similar to my situation. I also read a section attached to it regarding forceful let-down...that is soooo our problem - all the points they mention happens for us so I am going to try and re-position her in more of a sitting up position to see if that helps with her choking/wind problems. And here I was worrying that I didn't have enough milk (although I did think that due to the excess feeding at night time and my boobs going soft and dd not wanting to latch properly). Last night was quite a success in comparison to the other couple of nights. After falling asleep on dh's shoulder at 10pm (last feed about 9.30pm) we eventually went to bed and put her in her crib at midnight. She woke up at 2am for a feed, settled back down in her crib straight away, woke at 6am, settled again after only 10 minutes of feeding and woke at 9am for a feed. Tonight, she has been feeding on and off (snacking at times too) since 6pm and dh has just gone to see if she will settle again in her crib. She is happy to sleep on us in arms, on shoulder/chest but when you put her down in her crib she wakes up and cries...that is the most exhausting bit of it all as you just can't get on and do things and at times I have to leave her to cry for a short period while I deal with ds1. I am much more relaxed now that I know that she is cluster feeding with some form of fussiness (and my milk flow). Thanks so much for your help everyone and information information - its made me much more relaxed and confident ... an overnight result (for now!).

Fantastic, Larlylou!

With putting her in the crib - can you warm it a bit with a hot water bottle before you put her down, or use a thin baby sleeping bag so she's not being put down somewhere cold?

Larly, that's great

Blossom, you ask about twinges. I don't know what they are. There is lots we don't know about breastfeeding, inc the odd twinges some people get. To be honest, if they are not bothering you that much, I suld suggest you ignore them and I would expect them to go away. If they get worse or more frequent, we can think again.

You say "also DD2 is still doing the 20 mins on, 20 mins off breast thing (ie feed 10-20 mins, then falls asleep but wants breast again). am i reading the signs wrong - could she need winding or comforting instead?? she seems to calm down better once she's on the breast again. i'm so worried that i wont have enough milk because i'm switching breasts after 1 hour of this routine and they both seem to get 'full' or rather hard about the same time. "

Awwwwwww.....blossom, why oh why do you think this means you may not have enough milk? I spend half my life on MN explaining how milk production works, and still mums think the baby feeding a lot means they won't make enough. The pattern you are describing is normal for a baby - do you always eat your dinner in one continuous stream of chewing and chomping, anyway??? No, you might have a break mid-meal.

What you are doing is just fine. You have enough milk. Stop worryng. Enjoy your baby, and the fact you can comfort her so readily.