Not sure if this is a sleep or feeding issue

[rubyslippers]

DD is 14 weeks and EBF

i honestly thought things would be better by now

she is waking 2 hourly at night for food and i am reaching the end of my tether

i am very tired (also have toddler to look after)

she still cluster feeds in the evenings

i cannot feed her more than i am doing in the day but the nights are awful on top of it

i need to sleep more than a n hour or two at a stretch

she has found her hands but sucking on them doesn't soothe her

she is very alert in the day and doesn't seem to have obvious sleep cues

i feed her to sleep in the evenings and at night although in the day i can pat her bum and she will settle

she really doesn't like a bottle - she has taken it twice but only on the rare occasions i have had an hour or two off

i am on my knees and there is no end in sight

i co-sleep but to be perfectly honest at the end of the day i just want to be on my own

i cannot get into the mindset that this is my job for now - she is thriving, happy and healthy but i am not

hi rubyslippers, sorry it's still so bad for you - my DS is 16 weeks now and manages 1 4hr sleep then 45min-2hr stints thereafter. I found giving him a dummy when he woke after 2 hrs sent him back to sleep - it took a few nights, but after that he went from waking every 2 hrs to waking after 4 hrs. now to work on his subsequent sleeps.
also, we were co sleeping, but he's in a bedside cot now and sleeps much better in there - do you have that option? hope it gets better.

I'm unclear why you are getting so little sleep, despite co-sleeping. Are you nursing sitting up at night maybe ? Or is the bed too small for everyone to sleep comfortably ?

I found with practice that if I nursed whilst I lie in bed, I could latch my baby on and go back to sleep whilst he feed, it really made a difference to the amount of sleep I got.

I also have a side-car cot attached to the bed, DS doesn't use it but means we can use every inch of the bed without worrying about him falling out.

thanks Arolf

have tried a dummy but she is not impressed

she cannot really get to sleep without a feed so that is an issue

she is in a basket in my room and has been from the start and i take her into bed as i cannot stand getting her in and out 4 times a night

over xmas and new year she was starting to go 5/6/7 hours followed by a 3 - 4 hour stretch so not sure what has happened

x-post with you babies

perhaps i should just co-sleep full time?

isn't 14 weeks getting on for the classic massive 4 month growth spurt time?

Hi Ruby

Is it possible that some of her hunger cues in the evening when she is cluster feeding are in fact sleep cues?

I made this monumental discovery with my 6 week old a couple of weeks back. Every evening was a bit of a mare as he'd be attached to me four hours and hours on end, or else cry - so tiring and a bit claustrophobic. I then watched a couple of Baby Whisperer episodes and twigged that in fact quite a lot of the time he was cranky because he needed to sleep and I was stopping that by whipping out my boobs all the time. I now try to identify tiredness before he completely melts down and it has worked - I get a couple of hours off in the evening while he naps. Things feel much more civilised.

I'm also co-sleeping full time and it is fab - I honestly don't know how often I feed him overnight because I barely wake up. Both DH and I feel pretty well rested in the morning as a result.

stupid question, but have you tried different brands of dummy? ds refused avent and tommee tippee, but loves mam, friends baby prefers avent.
also, could it be teething?

stepford - attempts to swaddle her and get her into bed are met with howls so i have tried ... she just seems very hungry

lukewarm - she has been on a permanent growth spurt since she was born! Only just got over the 12 week spurt

arolf - tried laods of dummies. Also she is teething - dribbling, chewing on everything

Ruby, tell me about it. It seems babies never stop spurting!!

Does DD fully wake up before a feed? Can you anticipate her waking e.g. does she rouse a bit first? The other night, DH managed to get our DS to sleep for another hour by rocking him when he started to rouse for food... Can your DH do this? Worth a try?

"perhaps i should just co-sleep full time?"

It would be worth a try and certainly an easy thing to try as you partial co-sleep anyway.

With my first child, I would get up at night and walk two steps to my DD cot, then feeding her sitting up in our bed and sometimes brought her into bed too sleep later on and I was shattered with tiredness.

With my second child I co-slept full time and I feel I benefit from more rest/sleep.

ruby, just sending sympathy vote, similar problems with my one at 24 weeks, except she is hardly feeding in the day at all. Still trying to work out what is causing it and what can be done.

More sympathy from me. I have a 13 week old DS who is exactly the same. I think he was awake at some point in every hour last night (12 then 1.45 then 2.30 etc). Partly it is because he has a cold so is more snuffly and that gives him terrible wind which wakes him and partly (i suspect) teeth.

Co-sleeping does help but doesn't solve the problem. I'm basically trying not to feed him every time he is awake at night at the moment - I've found patting and hand on tummy work well. Also, I've started giving infacol if he seems very bunged up which also helps.

The only other thing is that DH puts our toddler tobed while I feed DS, I then hand DS to DH and slope off to bed. DH brings DS up with him and I do a dream feed so at least I have one session of 2-3 hours sleep even if I do have to go to bed at 8.30...

This too shall pass.

I co-sleep full time (we have bedside/sidecar cot as well but she only sleeps in it sometimes) and I get a reasonable amount of sleep although sometimes it's hard. My dd is 15 weeks and had been waking up 2-hourly after the 12 wk growth spurt. It's a real killer getting that little sleep so I do sympathise. Someone suggested to me the very basic notion that perhaps she wasn't getting enough food at night so I've begun forcing her to have a full feed on both sides before allowing her to go back to sleep and that seems to have helped. She does a 4 hour stint at the start of the night, and 3 hourly thereafter.

thanks for the messages

i tried a 2 sided feed last night and she still woke after 2 hours

can't take much more

she slept with me last night in bed but i just don't sleep as well

i just cannot believe she is feeding like a newborn - it is worse because over the xmas/new year week she was going up to 7 hours

i am sooooooo weary

ruby so sorry for you! DS has just started to stretch a bit from 2 to 2.5/3 hours although not always. I've been doing "shifts" with DH to cope - so DH will take DS between feeds and I sleep in the next room as I don't relax when cosleeping. I've now taken to uttering the mantra "it shall pass" although I want to weep when my NCT mates tell me their babies are going 6/7 hours.
I really hope it gets better soon for you

ruby - my DS has never managed longer than 4 hours! I'm a bit that you got so much sleep over xmas!
fwiw we tried formula top ups when he was at his worst, and they made sod all difference, except giving me more work. EBM top ups were slightly better, but still didn't extend his sleep by much.
when we were properly co sleeping, it took me a few days to get used to it

iggly - my nct pals are the same, makes me spit!

When I read your post I straight awau thought of the 16 week growth spurt. It's the growth spurt I found the hardest to cope with as like you, ds had got really close to sleeping through then all of a sudden wanted multiple feeds in the night.

I'm sure you know already, but growth spurts are a way of increasing the mother's milk supply to coincide with the baby's increasing appetite, so the more and longer you feed for, the more your supply will be boosted.

When I was in your shoes I rolled with it (rather than get annoyed and angry about it) and constantly repeated 'just a phase' to myself. And it WAS just a phase, and things DID return to the way they are. Acceptance is very important, otherwise you can constantly feel like you're fighting it.

Can you try and bring the cluster feeds forward to late afternoon/early evening so you can have a bit of a break in the evening? Maybe hand dd over to dp while you have a bath/rest/break?

my dd2 is 17 weeks and doing the exact same

up until a week ago she was sleeping from 10ish - 7ish, only waking once for a sleepy feed

but last night it was 12, 1, 3, 5, 6 and then up for the day - similar for the past few nights

co-sleeping doesn't really work for me either, i can't sleep with her in bed with me. she sleeps in her basket right next to me so i don't have to get out of bed to pick her up - nappies and so forth are all within reachable from bed distance too

i have considered trying to get her to take a longer feed, maybe changing her nappy or something when she comes off the breast to wake her up a bit so she'll go on the other side, take in more milk and sleep longer

not sure it's a growth spurt - she fed all day for a couple of days last week and that felt more growth spurty iyswim

think she might be teething - red cheek, sucking fists and drooling

am loathe to approach hv as i might be advised to start (whisper) weaning her

arolf I wish they'd keep it to themselves sometimes! One of them claims to get her 14 week baby to sleep by simply reading to them

Hi ruby
You sound really exhausted and understandably fed up.I guess I just wanted you to know you are not alone, I am in a similar position. As are many others I'm sure! The feeling that everyone else's baby is sleeping for longer than your own is horrible.

I'm afriad to say I don't have any magic answers of advice to change the current situation you are in. My DS2 is 8months now and has just started going 3 hourly in the daytime. He does go to sleep well at 7pm but up at 10.30/11pm then 2 hourly. It has been this way for 8 months. I have had 3 hours sleep in a row just three times .For many weeks from 18-28 ish it was 1.5 hourly.
I thought I would lose it and felt so desperate at times.

I remember reading someone asking for advice about their 2 hourly boob addict and one of the replies was from a woman whose baby was still 2 hourly at 10mths. I nearly fainted.

Yet here I am and I am coping (just!). I second the advice to co-sleep. My DH went to the spare room- more room for us all and suited us better. The nights I felt most rested were when I put him in bed with me from the off rater than in sidecar cot. He seemed to sleep better, or maybe I just did.

I think the hardest aspect is coping with the toddler (behaviour) on top, that I have found so testing. Getting some help (childcare, friends, family) to have DS1 for 3 hours in an afternoon meant I could cosleep with DS2 for his afternoon nap and I found that so helpful. I would sleep deeply as by early afternoon I was shattered. Without a good daytime sleep 1-2x a week I wouldn't have coped. If your LO doesn't have a good afternoon nap, I really recommend finding a friend to take your LO for a walk and having an hour or so's kip.

The other thing that really helped, and I know this sounds silly, was DS2's start. He was unexpectedly very ill at birth and we nearly lost him and just thinking about that got me through many a rough night. I know it may sound trite, but for me, just thinking about people I met through NICU who were up 2 hourly to check on oxygen sats monitors or to give anti convulsant medication REALLY helped me get it in perspective.

I hope things change for you soon, but if they don't then you may be surprised with what you can cope with .

My dd is now 19 weeks. Over Xmas (so when she was around 14 weeks) she was waking up every 1 1/2 hours at night to feed. This went on for about a week. Was very difficult and thought I was losing my mind a bit. But it has gradually got better and better and she is now going for at least one stretch of 3, 4 or 5 hours a night.

Things that I think might have made a difference are feeding her as much as I can during the day - it's almost one hour on, one hour off at the moment. And I also take her into a quiet room to feed her as I found that if there is anything else going one she becomes so distracted that she does not feed properly. Additionally, I co-sleep and have kicked my dh out into the spare room. This means that I have enough room to really relax in bed and can get a decent bit of sleep when dd allows.

When it was really bad, I also spent about 3 days going to bed at 7 o'clock. This made a huge difference.

thank you so much for the messages

we had the worst night since the 6 week spurt last night

BUT she didn't want to feed - she seemed ot be getting upset at the breast. Would feed for a minute then pull off upset and this would go on and on

if i sat her up she was happy and alert, looking round

she finally settled at 11.30 pm (after being fed to sleep)

I kept her in bed with me, and she fed at 2.30, 3.45, 5.00, 6.30, 7.15 - i can't do this

i wish i could go to bed at 7 pm but she generally settles at 9 pm

last night was odd - I bathed her, she had a big feed, went to sleep at 8.30 pm but awoke at 9.10 pm and that was it ... so no rest

the thing which kept me going during the early days of feeding was the thought it would get better - we are now back to her feeding like a new born and i have lost the feeling there is light at the end of the tunnel

ruby, my DS had a night like that - finally down at 11.30, up at 1, 2, 2.45, 3,30, 4.30, thought sod this and got up, he didn't go back down un til 7.30, then up at 8.10. he was barely feeding each time, but wantd a chat and was beaming and chortling. i ended up putting him in our carrier/sling thing, so got him to nap from 11.15 until 1pm, and am currently trying to feed him to sleep (think it's working!)

i'm having a 'you're lucky you're so cute' day, as the temptation is to just put him in another room and let dp handle it for a night!

i;m reading the no cry sleep solution just now and will start iumplementing it soon i think.

hope things improve for you

i have the "lucky you are so cute" thoughts all the time with DD

they are clearly cyber (non) sleeping twins!

am taking her to a cranial osteopath tomorrow

i also have the NCSS but don't have the energy to read it all the way through