Please help, at wits end with breastfeeding and night wakings, 17wk baby

[Hullabaloo2]

I honestly feel like I'm going to crack up, I'm sure others have had it worse on here but I've reached my limit. I just feel SO angry with dd2 and its wrong but I need to sleep. DH is of no support whatsoever, neither are either sets of our parents.

Our story.

When she was first born, on her first night she outdid dd1 and fed for 6 hours. Midwifes took her a couple of times (reluctantly, they were a cheery lot) and confirmed they felt she was hungry. She was bottle fed by dh on 2nd night then had a few bottles intermittantly till day 5 then entirely breastfed. So I never engorged at all, wondering whether this is anything to do with it? However the last time I got her weighed at 6 weeks she was piling on the weight so breastmilk must have been doing the job. Reason I have not got her weighed again is mainly cause the Health visitors usually tell horror stories and you leave wanting to cry so rather not see them if possible.

DD2 had her 2nd injection a month ago. She is always hot even in colder weather and after injection she could have been a bit feverish at times, then 2 weeks ago we got swine flu, it was diagnosed in dd2 and she got her equiverlent of tamiflu. That was a week last friday. So at least for the past 2 to 3 weeks she has been doing what I call 'wanging' latching onto nipple then clamping down and pulling off, resulting in bruised feeling and what feels like a chinese burn of the nipple! It bloody hurts when she feeds now for pretty much last few weeks and I'm still doing regular night feeds when pain is naturally at its worst. My breasts never engorged and now she just drains them flat all day, I know they are 'well drained' but they feel totally empty, which does not do my confidence any good.

DD2 is also an active little monkey and even with her sleeping bag on can get anywhere in the cot, which means regular wakenings from her whacking her head on cot bars and waking herself and me up. I've looked at 'airflow' but that won't fit on our cot, wondering whether to buy a travel cot so she can roll to her hearts content.

The other problem with night wakenings is that I, ahem, snore. Have since being pregnant with dd2, and its loud, I can wake my dd1 up through two closed doors and give her nightmares about monsters coming to get her and scare my dh awake when next to him, or in next room. So god knows what its like for dd2 just a couple of foot from me. And she also wakes when I turn over in bed.

I also take two iron supplements a day.

So to sum up the waffle.

I'm knackered and v cross.

What has happened to milk supply?

Could it be a growth spurt/ill health?

How long does she need night feedings for? I do check nappy and she's got through colic (whole other story).

Any other thoughts? I just want a decent amount of milk to feed her and her magically to sleep through the night...

I'm going out soon (hour prep to get us out for 10...) so may be slow on replys should be back in this afternoon and dd2 may go down for a sleep.

Thanks for reading x it helps to talk it out

Oh you poor thing... sleep deprivation is a killer!!

It does sound to me like a combination of growth spurt/developmental jump. How is she feeding during the day?

I know it is not much consolation but this will soon pass!!

I'm sure someone else will come along with much more useful advice

(Says the person who's 19mo is currently feeding like a newborn during the night... oh I hope his new bed comes soon!!)

Hi hullabaloo, what a tale of exhaustion. It is so terrible when you're not getting enough sleep, especially with another DD to keep you on your toes during the day too. From what you have said, it sounds like DD2 is having a growth spurt and/ or recovering from illness and jab still. These things can take ages when they're little, can't they?

I don't know much about milk supply, but I am sure your DD is getting enough. I know HVs can be a pain in the bum but getting her weighed may at least put your mind at rest? My DS just fed and fed for the first 6 months, on and off nearly all the time. It was exhausting so I know this will not be helping you if you are also not having much sleep. (Been there too ). Could she be wanging because she is teething?

As for the sleep thing, I'd say get a travel cot if you think it will help her sleep for longer patches. Basically, do whatever it takes to get sleep! Your DD2 may not be so disturbed by your snoring if she is used to it in the womb- it may even be a comfort, but if not have you tried going to the doctor? I think there are a few remedies now for snoring that may help?

Is there anything your DH could do to help? Is he deliberately unhelpful or just inept?

I hope you have a lovely day today wherever you're going, and I hope things look up for you soon. It IS a phase, it will pass... promise! xx

Thank you both, helps to hear similar stories and I'm going to have to go and feed her now, she started teething at 2 months (forgot about that one...ha ha!) and dh is just 'practical'.

Will reply more later and thanks...feel better already x

Back again...why is it just easier to stay in with a 3 yr old and 4 mth old?

I've been feeding her lots during the day due to being feverish/hot weather. Why is your 19mth old feeding so much?...unless your bed sharing....hence waiting for his new bed...see brain still working...just.

Hi Singalongmum I feel better...just another 2 months of this feeding then...possibly!?! Poor you with 6 mth of it...she is teething but has been since 2mth...she's not too bad this week. May take her to get weighed this week...I hate going...but I did have her roughly weighed at drs last week and she was on second from bottom centile and she held a 50% line up till 6 wks when I last got her weighed. I do genuinely think any weight loss will be down to fever/injection/swine flu etc but hv's tend to err on side of caution and like to terrify you while being 'helpful' .

Travel cot, yep think I will get one...she's just so agile which is great and brilliant but does not help with sleep. Re snoring I like the idea of it being a soothing sound...not like a pnematic drill as dh says...apparently it will pass as hormone levels drop...but it has been 4mths...may give it 9mths...bit embarressed to go about it. Its the turning over in bed too that wakes her up...could move her cot at right angles to bed so the sound is a bit quieter and she can't see that I may be awake.

Dh's attitude is 'leave her to cry' and I am indulging her too much by attending to her. And if he had her he would feed her at a set time then ignore her the rest of the time. Nice. Not supportive...sometimes I just want her held by someone who really cares while I go pull my hair out, without feeling guilty about neglecting her to cry He's just a 'practical' solutions man. If you leave her to cry she will learn to sleep. But its not like I'm jumping up to her like I did dd1 (who slept thro at 4 wks...you can tell this time its a shock to my system ). I do leave her if I feel she will settle herself again. I do feel she may sleep better if I'm not in the room disturbing her...but not at the magic 6mth stage yet.

Thanks again for taking time to reply both of you

Hi again, glad you're feeling a bit more chirpy- helps just to offload, I know from experience! Maybe avoid the HV for a few weeks til she's picked up a bit- last thing you need is a HV pain-in-the-bum talk!

My DS was very active too- walking at 10mo, which I was always convinced had a lot to do with his restlessness at night. She'll be very entertaining when she's older if she's anything like my DS! Have you tried white noise? It's a bit weird at first, but my DP and I found it really helpful for drwoing out shuffling etc and learnt to sleep with it too.

As for your DP- mine is similar; his opinion was always I could do what I like, but don't expect him to join in as he had other ideas! VERY HELPFUL . But I am so glad I didn't leave DS to cry, though I know there are others on here that'll disagree! Good luck- drop back and let us know how you're doing. I'll watch this thread for a while just in case.... x

Hi Hullabaloo, sorry I don't have much advice but I'm a snorer too, and find those breatheright nasal strips brilliant - I can really feel the difference when i'm wearing one and DH says they make a big difference.

Like you I don't think DD was ever bothered by my snoring, but she definitely was by me turning over in bed. We put her into her own room at 5 months for this reason, which meant she slept much better. Didn't help my sleep at all though, as I was up and down to check on her so often.

Sounds like you're doing a great job. Just keep reminding yourself that this phase will pass.

I wonder if this interesting article on Kellymom rings true at all? 4 months is a really common time for night waking, but of course that doesn't make it any less tiring.

Thanks very much for replies again!

Singalongmum - seeing HV tomorrow, but for dd2's 3 mth injections (at 4 mths ) not looking forward to it at all...part of me is thinking if they think she can wait till 4 mths what's another weeks delay...I may try asking them...we've had such a trying month since last injections and she's just coming right again. There is one HV I like, she's new but there is another who is horrendeously untactful...

White noise is an excellent idea...but not really wanting to leave hoover on all night or move down to washing machine what did you use? Radio? I've also ordered a travel cot, with extra matteress (chance for more paranoia, but its made to fit and gap should be less than 4 cm either side...) may even be able to fit motion monitor between that and original mattress for it.

So glad I'm not alone with the dp/dh with the attitude that sucks. Its just a way of them getting out of doing anything I'm sure...talk about passing the buck. Really supportive

And thank you for keeping a watch x

Hi Greensnail, you can get those strips at the chemists? I could pretend they're 'not for me, for dh' . This phase will pass, this phase will pass....definately wasn't passing at 1.30 til 3.30 this morning...that was a bump on the head wakening...then 'well I'm wide awake now, lets have a chat!' zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hi Grendle, brilliant, yes it makes perfect sense...love it...it explains it all so perfectly. Thank you!

Thank you all...only 2 hours up last night, she had two feeds and woke due to whacking her head, put her back to sleep at 3.30 wide awake and chatting...and eventually chatted herself to sleep...feel guilty but soooo tired.

Hi I have 18 week ds and a 3 year sld, so you have my sympathy.

We have been having the same nipple tugging

What has happened to milk supply?- Nothing, its just your breasts have adapted to supply and demand, and engorgment is less likely second time around

Could it be a growth spurt/ill health? Yes, or teething? my ds has really snotty nose and I am convinced he is teething

How long does she need night feedings for? I do check nappy and she's got through colic (whole other story). My ds wake up between 3 and 5am for a feed, then goes back to sleep. I am happy with the night feeding, as helps with the milk supply.

Any other thoughts? I just want a decent amount of milk to feed her and her magically to sleep through the night...

Maybe just wait a few weeks and see what happens? I nealy put ds on formula at 17 weeks as he was waking every 2 hours on a night, but it passed......

HTH

Definitely don't go for jab is you think she's under the weather- it will make the reaction much worse.

We used radio crackle, and also bought a CD of washing machine noise to vary it a bit. Still use it now when DS is unsettled. It really helps

Yes, you can get them at the chemist or supermarket.

Don't feel guilty about ignoring her when she's talking at night. She's obviously happy enough if she's talking not crying. As far as I can see the only way of teaching her that the middle of the night is not the time for a chat, is by ignoring her attempts at conversation.

Hi Lillymolly

Someone in same boat! Reassuring to hear about engorgement I was worried the formula had affected it...but thinking about it dh tried her with the bottle and she had one good feed off it ie about 2oz but after that she was very fussy about it, so my supply should not have been affected too much.

I would not mind one feed a night...its the waking up and not going back down again or waking up for 2 to 3 feeds...night is good for supply, I do remember that...but so often...since birth...!! But good to hear (for me not for you ) you have had 2 hour wakenings...and it passed! Just so disheartening when your trying to do your best and its so hard and having a dh who is less than supportive of me being up in the night with her...really knocks you and makes you question yourself...however would not go to bottle...too much like hard work sterilising bottles everyday! Thanks for posting

Hi Singalongmum I'll give them a call now...don't think she's still under the weather but she's only just out of the woods with swine flu...and I want to go out with dc tomorrow as well...don't fancy doing it if dd2 unhappy. Intrigued by washing machine cd...which cycle does it do? 15 degrees or 90 degrees?...cause I'm not sure I could cope with 90 degrees . Will go look up...thank you.

hx

X posted Greensnail

Will make a trip out to get them...'for a friend' and some more iron, spatone is what I'm using.

I think I just feel guilty and unhappy about ignoring her because its such a precious moment and I'm missing it but I NEED SLEEP!! Doesn't get any easier does it...

Help again...think this should be in 'sleep' section as well.

DD2 up from 2 till about 4ish then awake at 5ish. She woke up without banging her head...so just ready to wake up? Changed her nappy, gave her a feed (in the dark) but she had a real time settling just like she did at 8ish when she went to bed...but she did do some tremendous trumps during the night so perhaps that was it...god I am knackered.

Told dh about the kellysmom article...he used it as a reason not to feed 'if you don't feed during the night she will feed better during the day' so I sarcastically asked if he had any good ideas to keep her concentrated and he admitted he had none. If I were the violent type....what I would do for a frying pan moment...

However on the feeding side which is how this started we seem to have settled. I have taken control of the feeding position again...which she does not like, but has to put up with! I have her pushed close up to breast with head a bit back, hold my breast with hand to keep it in her mouth far enough, then my other hand controls her hands (the bottom hand she likes to try to suck at the same time as feeding and the other hand is used to pull breast so nipple comes mostly out of mouth so she can tug or wang it) and holds her close. Why did I not see before I was letting her get a bad position?? Ah sleep deprivation... Thanks to your messages I now have more confidence in my milk supply and it seems all good again, even tho they get low I feel I can still feed her. Have cancelled her injection with HV.

So going to change room round a bit when bed arrives, get the radio in for white noise and cross my fingers.

Thank you all for your help and hints and advice and experiences I'm going to move on to sleep is for the weak thread maybe...if I qualify...I feel I qualify today...and it has been 17.5 weeks since I slept through the night...had 3 nights where I got to sleep from 9ish til 4.30...but was expecting to get woken up whole time so didn't sleep

Rambling now...thanks all again

Hx

Is she sleeping in a separate room to you? I appreciate this may not be something you want to consider, but lots of mums find they get more rest if their baby is as close to them as possible. some have them in a cot alongside their bed, others actually in bed with them. Some mums bring their baby into bed with them and feed them lying down, then everyone goes back to sleep there. It might be that this sort of approach might mean your dd doesn't wake up so fully at night. Though, I appreciate it may not fit with your or your dh's views.

Also, most people won't change a nappy at night unless their baby has done a poo.Nappy changing also tends to wake them up quite a bit.

Will she feed back to sleep? It's very common at this age for babies not to want to put themselves to sleep and feeding to sleep works for lots of people.

I hope you get some more rest soon.

Well done for sorting your feeding position! Give it a while to kick in- you never know how changing something during the day will help to change the nights.

LOL at washing machine cycle! Funnily enough, there is a slow spin and a fast spin option!!! We choose slow spin- seems much more civilised!

I agree re changing nappy unless you really need to; it often wakes them up too much. How are you settling her at the mo?

Ignore DH, wait til you have energy then you can sit down and tell him how it feels. x

def dont change her nappy

its really hard, I know, I am afraid I am the opposite to some other posters on here, in that I think my babies sleep better (and I) if they are in their own room. Its always worked for us. If she is waking up and wont settle back to sleep what is she doing? is shse gurging or crying? if she is just gurgling, then try ear plugs! if it is crying, how about "shush pat" where you just lay your hand on her chest and syaing shush......then move slowly away from her.

What about a dummy?

Don't worry, I only change her nappy if I suspect a poo! With dd1 it was every single time she woke...even if it was dry...But do have to 'check' the nappy, using reusables and sometimes the smell does not make it out and you need to have a look which means undoing the velcro etc which can be rather noisy...and she really does not like a pooey nappy or a wet one...so does stop her settling.

She is in the same room, in a cot about 2 foot from the bed. We did do co sleeping until about a month ago when she started threatening to roll off king size bed from the middle of it...hence co sleeping no longer an option for us and she is in a sleeping bag...suspect gaffer taping her arms and legs together would also make no difference to this little houdini...

Feeding to sleep, she doesn't, dd1 would go all floppy (did the arm lift and flop test) then put her to bed...dd2 just lightly naps so she's always semi awake when I put her in cot. She can also feed...and you think your getting there...her eyes go...yes!! Then PING wide awake and starts chatting away...even in the dark its my fault...I gave her the talkative genes...

Good point about changing her position...it may help with nights (grasping at straws desparately).

I'm genuinely worried about people who feel a need to produce the sound of a washing machine...must be also sleep deprived parents...it sounds a bit like train spotting...

Settling consists of nursing her to sleep...but like above...sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. Trying lights out to convince her its nighttime not social chitchat time.

Will ignore dh, but keep frying pan handy this time.

Did separate rooms with dd1 at 4 months as we both slept better, however dd2 in a room next to ours but round the landing and she sounds so far away...even tho wall is thin, and the thought of getting up and down all night to her is exhausting...but if I don't do it then she might not sleep through...with dd1 I also had her monitor on in our room all the time which was distracting from sleep...could never get right volume and the white noise and light from it kept me awake...could get a better monitor...one of the digi one's so only get her noises... hmm...that could be reassuring...and a video screen thingy as well... will think about that one.

She can be crying then gurgling, I'm just so shattered whatever shes doing I offer a feed! which sometimes may not be the answer...need someone to come do my thinking for me. I've tried the 'SHUSH GO TO SLEEP!' loud whisper...does that count? But no not the shush pat...will try as option tonight and may have to write down suggestions so I actually remember...

No dummy needed...she found her thumb within minutes of being born...and have tried a dummy...she just looks disgusted with me and it and spits it out. But she does send herself off with her thumb.

Thank you all so much for your replys again...going to have to go see to her...been out all day and now she's over tired

Which nappies are you using at night? DD hated a wet or dirty nappy at this age (seems unbothered now) but once we changed to Ella's house bumhuggers or Fluffles at night she seemed much more settled. They are fully fleeced lined which keeps her feeling nice and dry, but obviously doesnt help if she's done a poo.

Re monitors - we just have cheap tomy walkabout monitor. We keep it on the lowest volume, can't hear anything at all unless she cries, although you can hear her breathing if you put your ear right up to it. It only has one tiny light on it too.

She almost did it!!! Well for one night only so far... from 12.30am to 5.45am...and what worked...

Shush pat! Usually she stirs and I may put hand on her or just try to send telepathic sleepy thoughts her way (worked with dd1) and she will wake up and start crying...but patted AND shushed this time and she just settled again...did it twice during night...and the 12.30 feed I did in silence and darkness didn't check nappy either (I sound like a first time mum don't I?) and it worked...didn't work at 12.30am tho cause I let her get into her stride...its got to be when she's just starting to think about waking...

So I'm up and about and full of energy today and dd2 is still abed! Gosh might even do some housework today

Greensnail, will definately try those nappies, she's nearly out of her Bumgenius bloody expensive nappies...and she has 5 motherease sandy's? poppers which I like. Any good second hand places to buy from? Oh and I looked up Fluffles and the sites are saying 'discontinued'?

hx

told you [smug] !!!

we had a bad night, he woke at 12.30am, 2.30 5am grrrrrrrrrr

Oh thats not nice!! But at least you know you are a fantabulous person for passing on that advice even if you are only awake by virtue of matchsticks...maybe we should get shares in Swan?

Oh well done hulla! Hope your success continues!

Yaay, congratulations! Long may it continue!

Yes Fluffles have been discontinued - not sure if Tots Bots have replaced them with something similar or not. Someone in the lovely new nappies section should be able to tell you. Am sure you could get some second hand though. I tend to use this site for second hand nappies.

Thanks Singalongmum you helped my sanity...still not sure about tonight...! Fingers crossed

Greensnail, I can see myself living on that site...want to buy lots and lots of different ones!! Thanks!