Clare Byam-Cook

[MewsMum]

Hi there,
I've just been having a look through some of the breast feeding threads and just wanted to post a little note re CBC.

She is fantastic.
I gave birth to my little girl at St.Thomas' in May and although I found the midwives to be excellent the help that I got breastfeeding was awful.
It was sooo demoralizing as all the other mums in the ward seemed to be taking to it like ducks to water but I just couldn't get my little girl interested. I asked for help as having joined the NCT I had been well tutored in the 'breast is best' philosophy. However, even with my midwife painfully squeezing my nipple and another swinging the baby on to the boob (having shoved my nipple to her nose prior to no avail)it still wasn't working.
Nevertheless I was told to just keep trying as it would of course work and babies didn't really need feeding that early on - she'd be fine! We gave birth on the Wednesday, by Friday night the poor mite cried all night. By Saturday morning she was yellow, her lips were shrivelled and she looked small and exhausted.
At that point I had had ENOUGH. I had to ask for some formula and eventually it was brought to me with a syringe.
Her face when the food landed in her mouth was a picture and it still makes me cry to think about it.
From that moment on I started to bottle feed.
We left the hospital that day (I begged!) and went home, still trying the techniques taught by the NCT but to no avail. Nipple to nose, swing baby on, arm between legs etc etc. Really uncomfortable for both of us and pretty crap really.
By week 2 after 2 midwife visits and a health visitor we still weren't breast-feeding (although at least pumping). I then called the NCT breastfeeding help line and was told to 'place the naked baby onto my stomach as she would then shuffle her way up toward my breast and latch on'. Great - needless to say it didn't work. The NCT lady who could have come to the house was on holiday. I was left with a 'Good luuuck'.
Thankfully at that point a friend gave me a number for Clare Byam-Cook. She made an appointment, came to the house and had us feeding within the hour. Her common sense approach was just wonderful and she removed so much awful NCT induced guilt. She could see from the pump that I wasn't making much milk and suggested to combine bottle and boob which worked wonders.
My little girl is 9 weeks old this week, we are still breast feeding and occasionally adding a bottle when necessary. My daughter sleeps 6-7 hours each night and happily feeds every 3-4 hours.
We're still not great breast-feeders (we are better feeding at home than in Starbucks) but we are doing it pain free and we are still here!
So many other mums I know who started with the NCT method have already or are considering giving up. To be honest I am really not surprised.
So - if you are struggling DO consider other advice. The main merit of an NCT teacher is that they have breast fed themselves for 6 months. Well, I am glad that they found it so easy... some of us just don't and I'm so glad we called in the Big Guns rather than just giving up. There is a really anti CBC vibe on this site, which is really sad.
I found her to be friendly, polite and ultimately a well-informed source of breast feeding guidance. The NCT could definitely learn a thing or two...

Hi Mewsmum
Glad that you are enjoying bfing your baby and congratulations.

You have been pretty clear about describing the NCT's 'techniques', but you seem vague about explaining how they differ from CBC's. Which makes your post sound rather fishy from an outsider's point of view.

What exactly could someone have said or done that would have helped you (in the way, I assume, that CBC did)?

My dh just read the title of this thread as

'Clare Bum Cock'

in his defence he has suspected swine flu

Just thought that might add something.

I'm off to give my dh a hand job.
Hopefully I should be able to tell how many more children we will be able to have by measuring how much semen he has tucked away in them thar gonads.

How's your latch, Moondog?

I shall move swiftly twixt mouth and hand and report back.

He will be thrilled.

Have you tried an electric pump Moondog?

They were all the rage before they invented Viagra you know

moondog, any soreness, cracks or bleeding, call in a professional. I have some adult chatline helpline numbers if you need them.

Oh, my dh has a background in farming.
The stories he can tell you about vacuums, animals and frottage in general are worth a lot more than £80 an hour, let me tell you.

I agree this does seem a slightly random thread but I thought I'd join in cos I also had CBC for a lactation consultation (£85 I think but this was 4 years ago) and I also found her excellent. I had been struggling to feed DD1 and was on the point of giving up due to the pain. She suggested it could be thrush (and gave me the Breasfeeding leaflet to my GP). But the best thing was how she showed me to get my DD latched on so it didn't hurt.

Fair enough re all the pumping business - I know that's nonsense (though she never touched on that with me). But after her visit I went from being about to give up breastfeeding to feeding my DD for 9 more months.

Anyway - that's my experience. Wouldn't have started a thread on it but might as well share!

Fair enough Kitsilano, at times maybe people do just need that one to one personal touch. Could you explain more about how she showed you how to get your DD latched that differed from what the mws or nct had already shown?

I'm remembering back 4 years now! But she showed me how to use pillow/cushions so that my DD was level with my nipple not coming up to it. Then to squeeze the breast on the vertical (IYSWIM) and bring the babies head in fairly firmly. This may all be standard stuff but no one had showed me, the midwives in hosp just kept saying she was latched on OK but it was AGONY. As soon as I did it the way CBC showed me I could feel the difference and it all got easier from there.
(For me the squeezing the breast thing was I think the major difference from what I had been shown).

It made me realise that although BF is tricky for some people (me included), it is possible (for most) with focused help and it made me feel really sad for those who have given up because of the pain because they were just left to it by themselves.

Of course I know I am lucky to have been able to afford it and am not knocking NCT/La Leche League or any others in the slightest.

Just that CBC made the difference between me giving up and continuing and I am very grateful for that.

I used CBC and because she only comes for an hour i don't think she was as expensive as other lactation counsellors who usually charge in the 120 range for a visit (I've seen 4 over 2 children), my memory is CBC was around £80 but could be wrong.

I found CBC pretty unhelpful - she told me my daughter had a poor suck and I didnt have enough milk and then tried to teach me how to bottle feed, because clearly bfeeding wasnt going to work. It was all very demoralising. To be honest one of the IBCLC lactation consultants I saw was worse, and I found the NCT and ABM hotlines not very helpful as they did seem to insist that if I just put DD on the boob more I'd be fine. Although they were very supportive and nice, they were just wrong for me. That advice wasn't fine, she failed to gain weight for several weeks that way and was miserable until I manged to increase supply through a combo of pumping and domperidone and I managed to get through 7 months of feeding with a combo of on the breast and expressed milk top ups, which I learnt about myself through other internet research, and in particular jack newman's website.

I saw another LC today for problems with my new son's feeding, and she was marvellous, so I just think the quality standards are hard to police, and you get what you get, not what you pay for. And someone who is marvellous for one person may be dreadful for another, given style, personality, recent nature of their own research and qualification refreshing etc.

That's so interesting Thaliablogs - sorry she wasn't as helpful to you.

Kitsilano - that sounds a bit like "enhanced latch" that I was taught at a breastfeeding group led by midwives at our hospital - which was free (cost me £15 in taxi fares on two occasions but worth it)

I wouldnt dream of paying a bf consultant though however marvellous they may be

Mewsmum - the main merit of an NCT counsellor is not that they bf their babies for 6 months - it is that they volunteer their time to help other mothers for FREE!

Training is afaik detailed and intensive and lasts 3 years - you cant just think "Oh I bf my baby Ill be an NCT bf counsellor"

Nothing CBC says is different from any other good source of info about bf - No such thing as The NCT method - utter drivel sorry

Just goes to show how hit and miss it all is.

The person who got me breastfeeding told me to ditch the nursing top and just wop out a boob - hold it vertically and bring the baby to the boob. BUt, most importantly, to use lashings of lansinoh first (even though I was terrified of giving DD lansinoh poisoning, or somesuch!)

She was a maternity care assistant, and she came to my home free of charge.

Doubt she had very much at all in the way of formal b/feeding quals but she helped me.

All very personal I guess.

MewsMum - you describe a method which you call an 'NCT method' which is absolutely unknown to me, and I have to ask you to withdraw the accusation (if that's not too strong a word) that this is what we do.

You did not see an NCT counsellor at the time, and you are saying what midwives demonstrated to you in hospital....this is not how an NCT counsellor would work (can you tell I am a bit cross about this? ) but it is certainly how some midwives work. Many of us then have to pick up the 'train wreck' situations when mothers and babies are struggling at home.

This is where face-to-face personal visits are needed. Your breastfeeding was messed up in hospital and you struggled on with further ineffective help at home

Please do not blame NCT for their volunteer being on holiday. A call to the breastfeeding line brought you a suggestion to enable your baby to self-attach - perfectly appropriate first-line suggestion when you cannot see the mother, and one I would have suggested myself. Sounds as if it wasnt clear - though what you call 'naked rooting' is evidence-based and as I say, is a useful technique to suggest over the phone. You needed more than this - and I am glad you got it.

I never say 'nose to nipple' myself, and if it is said, it does not mean shove the nipple in the baby's nose. It's a tip to ensure the mother is helped to offer an assymetric latch. But there are many ways of helping a mother and baby get a good attachment, there is no NCT method, what works for one person does not work for everyone (especially when things have already gone wrong), I am pretty confident CBC is actually good at ensuring mothers and babies get an effective latch....but so are we! I do it all the time, and so do my colleagues.

CBC got a bit of a pasting a few weeks ago on mumsnet because of what she wrote about expressing milk and because of some apparent anomalous parts of her knowledge. I do think there is an issue with her supervision.

bedlambeast, no one is prevented from contacting an NCT breastfeeding counsellor and their availability is not restricted to middle class areas.It is just restricted! There are swathes of middle class areas with no NCT breastfeeding counsellor or anyone else around - there are about 500 breastfeeding counsellors from all the 4 vol ors and we do not cover the country by any means.

In fact, there are many, many more peer supporters in all areas, which is a great thing, but they are not trained to sort out difficult latching situations, and would not have been able to help the OP.

OP - please come back and set the record straight. NCT had nothing to do with your difficulties with breastfeeding. Did it?

Mewsmum, in the thread you read where CBC 'got a pasting' did you see any other posters who had also used CBC describe her bedside manner? How did you find that? Part of the pasting she got was down to her choice of words to describe a human breastfeeding relationship and how she treated the new mother herself.

oh, my last post was confusing. forget it. wiggly baby on knee.

Mewsmum - you do realise that CBC was quite wrong, not to mention rude to suggest that you're not making enough milk by the amount you expressed in a pump? And that one sure fire way of decreasing your milk supply is to offer formula top-ups? Or is CBC just misunderstood and years of evidence based research wrong? What would you suggest to mums who can't afford to see CBC on a one to one basis................oh silly me.....of course...buy her books and DVD's!

You mention the main merits of an NCT BFC being that they bf for 6 months and that they must have found it easy......does that mean if you make it to 6 months that you found it easy?

What would you consider the main merits of CBC to be?

She, herself, turned to formula with both her babies as she believed she was a duff milker.....so, and jmo, how much better would she feel if she could convince other mothers they were also duff milkers and should turn to formula also? Ultimate guilt buster if you ask me

Well its a shame she charges because I had very similar problems and could have done with her "miracle cure". I had a lovely bf counsellor spend all day with me and still ds wouldn't feed. When they started talking about readmitting him to hospital I had to formula feed.

I had never heard of CBC before this thread, but having done so have googled her and read some of her advice.

I was horrified by points 5 and 6 of this. Particularly "If she's on there too long you are, in effect, giving her a dummy not a bottle." How bizarre to treat breastfeeding as giving a dummy or a bottle. Surely you are giving a feed?

And point 6. Three to four hours between feeds? DD is 11 weeks and only v v rarely goes that long. I rejoice when it's 2 1/2 hours as it actually gives me time to get some stuff done. She certainly isn't hungry at the end of the feed (spits out the nipple in a very obvious way and would not drink more even if I tried to force feed her - which obviously I wouldn't).

I am also starting to understand where some of the odd comments I have heard about pumping to check milk supply and topping up with formula or EBM at the end of a feed if the baby isn't going 'long enough' have come from. I have no doubt that one-on-one tuition can help some women to latch successfully and that that can make all the difference. However, some of this advice makes me very and I knew nothing about breast feeding three months ago. Thank goodness I asked my questions on mumsnet (and, in fairness to her, to my own mum, who is quite a font of knowledge without having read a single book).

ihavenosecrets I had a similar problem with my DS1 and I had a BFC help me over several weeks, including a full day. He never latched on (well, about 5 times in 12 weeks). In the end I had to admit defeat. It was beyond the help of anyone (and my FREE BFC had undergone 3 years of training, plus constant updating, had years of experience and is now a qualified lactation consultant....a bit more than CBC). CBC likes to present herself as someone who has all the answers but actually, sometimes - often even - the damage has already been done in hospital with shoving midwives etc and the baby and mother may just never recover from that

I haven't really read thread properly, but just wanted to barge in and make following points.

1.nasty comments about charging. If you spent the money on a nursing chair, or a 3 takeaways, or a doula, would people be so mean? Why is paying for advice such a hot potato?

2.She did help ME, where NCT helpers didn't manage or just weren't available to COME ROUND AND SIT IN MY HOUSE FOR AN HOUR. I tried to sort things out for 8 weeks without CBC to no avail. I was desperate by the the time I met her, on a recommendation. That's not anyone's fault, just the way things were.

3.MewsMum, don't think you need that bottle for ever, just keep feeding as much as possible and you will find you get ever more "confident". Her comments about not making enough milk may make you feel that you will never make enough, but sometimes it can just be a slow warmup and then engine revves perfectly. Come to terms with the bad early days and believe in yourself, not in Clare!