Lactivism on R4

[FaintlyMacabre]

The Today programme have just said they will be doing a bit on lactivism. Will probably be on before 8:30, but definitely before 9. Might be worth a listen?

weaning one seems a bit more measured
do these two women have girls with boys names?

arrrgghh - it isn't available on listen again yet! I was walking back from school drop off at 0.0001 miles per hour when this was on (DD won't go in buggy any more)

I will have to wait until this afternoon

Actually, I didn't mention what age my son was - they did. The discussion I had with the researcher, was about discussing how useless it was put pressure on individual women when pregnant, with 'breast is best' when as a culture, we don't like breastfeeding and don't support it. And that why they say 'breast is best' is that they haven't the courage to frame it properly - that formula feeding has risks. And they refuse to let mothers know what the risks are, and then get annoyed when women say "Stop pressuring me." My take on the Rosin article was this was what you'd get, if you scream breast is best, but don't support women in breastfeeding, especially in public. The pertninent point to me, about the Rosin, was that she said she felt frustrated that her husband had a public life, whilst she sat at home. Well, if breastfeeding means you sit at home for a year, you are going to be annoyed when your child doesn't win a Nobel child by the time they are 8.

On a call back, the researcher said casually, "You son is two, isn't he?" As I'd not mentioned my son, at all, I was surprised and said "No, he's 4." We then discussed how he was almost completely weaned "mum to mum".

At no point was it mentioned as being part of the debate, hence my saying what I did. Especially as I had specifically said he was almost self weaned.

Also, we spent hours in traffic, after I'd told them they should come for me about 5 - they came at 6.30. So the tiny slice was squeezed in at the end. I was sitting watching the clock tick - and the other two were having a grand time discussing how the facts were nonsense... and the clock was ticking.

If I hadn't spoken up, and talked over, I would not have spoken at all. Especially as I had patiently waited for them to open to me, and rather than giving me a chance to respond to the middle class crap, they opened to me with a totally different issue.

I just wish I'd managed to mention that a police prescence had to be pre-arranged, prior to the Bournemouth picnic, due to the appalling comments in the newspaper, when she claimed lactaphobia didn't exist.

Many of you will no doubt wish I'd done it 'better'. Given it was speak up, or say nothing, I said what I could.

There was a secondary interview, in the green room afterwards, where I did have the opportunity to make the points I'd been called in to make. They said those comments would go on the blog, so I look forward with interest, to see what does turn up.

How would you have coped?

Mrsb trust me, weaning is a pain... It's fun in principle but when baby starts spitting up, refusing to eat etc. I regretted the good old milk day!

I still don't see why you feel you have to make an effort for something that seems unimportant for you- specially as from what you said it's been so difficult.
Who cares what people say as long as you and your baby are happy?

morgangee - no one, not anyone here, not anyone anywhere, could be perfect in the pathetic time slot you had, after the disgraceful messing about you experienced.

It is outrageous you were asked to talk about topic A and if you had not dug your heels in, you would have ended up talking about topic B.

My personal view is in my post at 9.16, but I may not be right

I think it's good your words will go on the blog. Don't hold back

"as a culture, we don't like breastfeeding and don't support it"

That was not my experience of breastfeeding in the UK. The assumption by my MWs, by the nurses and by the HV was that I would breastfeed - for a long, long time. I breastfed anywhere I needed to - at my family's and friends' houses, in church on Christmas Day, in Carluccio's and Wagamama's, in the GP's waiting room etc, to universal approval.

morgan, I heard you and I thought you were fab under the crap circumstances.
Meeja types almost always misdlead their victims contributors. I would never have anything to do with them. I got burnt (badly) by them once.

Zoe WIlliams has gone right down in my estimation. I used to like her column...

morgan - you did well, it was the interviewers fault for not keeping zw quiet and for not sticking to the topic.

Morgan, what a rubbish slot and such short time. you did well. i've never heard of ZW and not ever read her stuff. i will listen again tomorrow. I am sorry to sound harsh earlier. frustration and all that.

Well- I listened to it in the car on my way to baby clinic, to get my son weighed...
I walked in with my brown shoes, greying hair, wearing ds in my Kari-me, and addressed the HV in my non-accented vaguely 'well-spoken' English voice.... to be asked 'I suppose your breastfeeding?' with a sneer

FFS- he is 12 weeks old- as Morgan said- that is actually what my breasts are there for- they already did their 'attracting' work- I have 2 children!

It is so sad that there really is a lactophobia in the west (not just UK) and it is a class issue too.

MrsB, if you hate bf then why are you looking forward so much to all that making your own purees stuff? I admit to having two AK books although I've misplaced them at the moment, if I find them again I'll have a look. I used some shopbought babyfood with ds1 but think you might enjoy baby led weaning.

The item's up (at the bottom of this page) if anyone who missed it wants to listen.

news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8021000/8021960.stm

The write up does a better job, but still misses so much. The end bit is misquote. I said women had to make informed choices, and not be banged on to my HVs, without the support to make it happen. No individual women should be pressured to do something, when the culture needed to change to support breastfeeding. Especially breastfeeding in public, which we are not comfortable with at all. Banging on about breast is best is pointless to pregnant women just because the NHS wants to save money. Breastfeding will not give you a Nobel prize winning athlete. It will give you the maximum of your genetic potential - formula feeding will give you slightly less, as it doesn't have enough in it.

The worst misquote is that last one. I said it didn't matter what women decided - as mothers they'd be 'wrong' no matter what they did. So I was addresing the stigma - there would be stigma either way. As a society, we simply don't like children!

"BF being 'pants' - the whole experience of it I mean ... glued to the sofa, breastpumps, feeding bras (can't wait to burn mine) etc. I am the exact opposite of an earth mother."

You've spent your whole time bf 'glued to the sofa'?

I bf for five years. Other than in the first fortnight or so I managed to work part time, study, socialise, look after three young children and a dog, plus house. Also do voluntary work.

No feeding bras.
No formula.
No breastpumps.

Breastfeeding represents freedom for me. Oh, and I'm not an 'earth mother' either.

And round my way there are plenty of working class women who bf happily for fairly protracted periods of time. Most of them aren't English, so maybe that's why they don't get their knickers in a twist about breastfeeding. It's only us here who get the heebeegeebees about it. But that's maybe because all our expectations about what's normal and what's acceptable in postnatal life tend to come from what we know about bottlefeeding.

standanddeliver: "But that's maybe because all our expectations about what's normal and what's acceptable in postnatal life tend to come from what we know about bottlefeeding."

True.

The idea that babies shouldn't 'snack' - from bottle feeding

The idea that babies should sleep through the night from an early age - from bottle feeding

The idea that babies should take a predictable amount of time to feed - from bottle feeding

The idea that babies are too old for 'milk only' feeds at a certain age - from bottle feeding

That it's not 'necessary' to breastfeed - from bottle feeding

And on and on and on....

That formula milk and breastmilk are 'the same'; that mothers breastfeed as an indulgence for themselves; that breastfeeding is sexual; that breastfeeding is not hygeinic.

Not saying that everyone holds all these views - but they are out there, very strongly!

StandandDeliver - yep, glued to the sofa mostly. I suppose I wouldn't be if I wanted to take the baby with me wherever I went ... but I must say I like the occasional moment or two without him. For example I'm going to the theatre tonight (first night out since he was born - yeay!) - I can't take him there. He's staying at home with DH - who will have some EBM and some formula to give him...

Ah ... my FIL just arrived .. gotta go. I'll look forward to peeping back at this thread later tonight ...

Lifted out of the BBC article:-

""But as far as I'm concerned the answer isn't more formula feeding, but increased support for breastfeeding from the outset in the form of counsellors.

"Women who are having difficulties should be monitored and helped - this is something society really needs to invest in."
Dr Sam Oddie from Bradford General Hospital

Amen to that I would say.

"StandandDeliver - yep, glued to the sofa mostly. I suppose I wouldn't be if I wanted to take the baby with me wherever I went ... but I must say I like the occasional moment or two without him."

But why does spending time in your baby's company = being glued to a sofa?

I didn't spend that much time apart from my babies when they were under a year (apart from being at work) but I still wasn't 'glued to a sofa'.

Seriously - most women in the world bf, and work and don't even own a sofa!

I don't get the glued to the sofa point. You're saying you are because you don't want to take your baby out and about but then go on to say that you enjoy time without him- seems contradictory to me- are you or are you not glued to that sofa ?

Either way that is nothing to do with BF. Some FF mums don't spend any time away from their babies, and some Bfers managed to work/spend time away from their LOs.

I missed the R4 piece this morning but must admit that the way it was trailed didn't exactly make me think it would be fair, honest and representative - the male presenter chortling over the word lactivist like someone who's just seen a dog walking on its hind legs. Having read this v interesting thread, I now understand that the cretinous Zoe Williams was involved. My is complete.

morgan, hope I didn't come across as critical on this or any of the other threads, that wasn't my intention. I was angry at the fact you were cast as the weirdo still bf your 4 yo almost immediately and were shushed when the other woman wasn't (and then got her piece in!)
Also felt it was too rushed to be any good - which is explained by them getting you there with only minutes left!

I only heard the trail, and did think at time 'oh man, are you going to get roasted on MN...'

But obviously Zoe Williams has taken some of the heat from Ed.

I would just like to say that i think you did a great job Morgan.

Each peach at your hv's (but not totally suprised). I mainly had nice hv's but a couple of rouge ones who suggested I needed to top up/wean as my dd wasn't gaining weight on the correct centile (wish I'd have just not weighed her and didn't with ds)

I can kind of understand the 'stuck on the sofa' as my dd fed FREQUENTLY and I was tired (but I DID go out and bf in public) My ds was the exact opposite so I guess it differs from woman to woman and baby to baby.

Typical superficial Today programme attempt to squash a complex issue into a tiny timeslot-- they couldn't even stick to just discussing the article the segment was supposed to be about. Every time there is any debate on bf this line about the middle classes gets trotted out; that they are oppressing all those women who don't bf with their militant pro-bf views. In reality most of the anti-bf sentiment in the media seems to emanate directly from middle-class commentators; e.g. the author of the original article, Zoe Williams, and sniggering f***ng Sarah 'let's not mention Little Britain here' Montague on Radio 4.

I am a big proponent of scrutinising conventional wisdom (aurorec, the author of the article does cite her sources; you can click through to them via links within the article, you will see, however, that she's been a bit selective with the evidence she chooses to use) but what I took away from the article was the need for much more research into bf.

Like the article's author and mrsbaldwin, I find bf a bit dreary sometimes too; it's okay not to find it a blissful milky dream at all times. All I can say is wait until you have another mrsb, you'll be glad to have a cast-iron excuse for a sit-down on the sofa.