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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

"Please breastfeed"

111 replies

hunkermunker · 15/04/2009 21:14

I saw the slogan "Please give blood" today on one of their vehicles and it set me thinking - we all know "breast is best" is trite and unhelpful - but what would be a good message?

I like "Every breastfeed makes a difference" - but would the give blood phrase work for this?

OP posts:
Qally · 20/04/2009 14:01

Frankly I think the only way we can sort out bf rates is by teaching kids the difference between breastmilk and formula in schools as part of personal development classes. Not just benefits/costs, but the biological differences. That is a big lightbulb moment, when you compare a dead fortified whey powder with a living celled human fluid.

I reached this conclusion last week when buying follow on milk for my almost 6 monther (I cannot exclusively pump for him for a year. I am not "manning up" for that as it is hell and I would actually rather like to start spending that 30 hours a week with him and not a pump) and a pregnant woman asked me the difference between powder and tetrapaks, and when I said she could avoid the hassle altogether by bf, wrinkled up her face and said "eww, no way".

Get a bunch of teenage girls and explain the difference before guilt, parenting, peer pressure etc. kicks in and at least it will be a more genuine choice. People just don't know the difference - and once they do, there is no decent help to make it possible. I once had a board certified lactation consultant spend two hours try to get my son to biologically nurture, because she was too unprofessional to confess that she hadn't divided his tongue tie properly four weeks earlier. She then let me pay her another 70 quid for the privilege. I had a total of 13 people try to teach me how to bf, and their statements were equally contradictory and equally definitive, and none worked, until the JR in Oxford managed it in minutes - and further, noted that in his case it was always going to be incredibly hard as he had further undiagnosed oral abnormalities. My experience of the help available is that a little respect for the mothers being thus "helped" might go a long way: my son learned to suck at all from a bottle. This medically proven fact for babies with his problems, might, had the "experts" not scoffed at me suggesting it, helped them diagnose him. Yet not one of these experts told me that huge breasted, giant nippled women might find a larger pump shield more comfortable - and at least two of them were hiring the damn things.

Bf can be hard and horrible. The impact this has on the mother, and her relationship with her baby, can be awful. I hated my son because bf him was so unremittingly disgusting (and yeah, bleeding, agonised nipples for months on end pretty much fits that) I felt he was a vampiric little fucker who had destroyed my life. I knew enough to know this was depression, that I had to find a way to hide it from him, and my mother pulled my weight so that all he ever saw was a soft faced, gentle mummy. The hatred was taken out on pillows. But not everyone has a saint of a mother who is willing to put their life on hold to ensure the baby is bf. Without that, my son would have been better off on formula.

Promoting bf is important, of course it is. But the way people do it is actually a turn off. I have stuck to ebm because I know the scientific evidence, and frankly much of the proselytising has made me want to give him formula as a two fingered salute. I know bf mothers get hassle in public - but my mother and I heard a woman in IKEA tell her dining companions "she'll have him on chips next" when I began to fish out the bottle. Of ebm. I also had a man (clearly very well up on bf issues) sneer at me in Starbucks. It is not just bf women who are judged.

Women need the importance taught at school, and they need a lactation consultant trained by the JR, NOT the frankly USELESS and in some cases actually negligent crew I have encountered under the aegis of the board certified lactation consultancy ilndustry. The latter trashed my initial six months of motherhood, and if I'd been less bloody minded would have condemned my little guy to formula. Ironic, no?

Peachy · 20/04/2009 14:03

We were taught that at school, GCSE classes for the council house girls (officially not obv, but all non council housers were talken into science whereas I was refused three sciences and talked into child development GCSE)

I think child development GCSE should be compulasory for ALL children. male or female. Just as important as RE (and I say that as an RE grad LOL)

messymissy · 20/04/2009 14:04

Rubbish at slogans, but despite feeling a bit conspicuous when first breast feeding out and about, it seemed by far the less stressful and more convenient option when out with friends who bottle fed. no mixing of formula, no carrying of warm water or trying to get your bottled warmed and no stress of running out if our outing was longer than planned. I could stay out as long as we liked but she had to go back once she had run out of bottles.

and all that sterilizing of bottles etc!

and dp being a tight arse was pleased at the money saving aspect.

I agree with jackstini lots of mums needed help - i did, i was fortunate to live in an area with a breast feeding support group (sounds horrendous, i think the title put people off) but once there it was a coffee morning with a hv on hand for advice and lots of bf ing mums for chat. more groups like that needed - which also need a better name!!

Qally · 20/04/2009 14:09

"We were taught that at school, GCSE classes for the council house girls (officially not obv, but all non council housers were talken into science whereas I was refused three sciences and talked into child development GCSE)"

Oh my sweet Christ, how bloody disgraceful. It should be taught to everyone (agreed boys too, to silence MIL and men who want to feed the baby toooooooo... or think bunging a bottle towards a struggling mother is "helpful" like my DH), as should at least the opportunity to learn science.

All I was taught by way of personal development was that Cigarettes Kill You, and Sex. Illustrated via diagrams of the testes and uterus. (The sex, not the smoking.) This was in the 80s, though, maybe things have changed for the better since.

Peachy · 20/04/2009 14:16

Yep,mine was the eighties too, left school in 89.
Didnt do much sex though,think one class with a banana and condom, and a TC programme that amde daft J pass out was all PMSL

Boys should learn all about all aspects of childrearing coz they're 50% of the package. And that does include BF- making a woman feel good about BF is a lot of it after all, making her feel she id doing something positive and benefivcial, and supporting her. Being proud of her. All this - meh. DH has FF babies and not fed babies and tehre is no difference in bond, plenty of other things you can do with them after all.

JulesJules · 20/04/2009 14:19

Blimey Qally. I agree that kids should be taught all this stuff in school, before the board certified lactation people get hold of them (what IS one of those?). Also that MW and HV should do their jobs properly, be up to date with research and advice. So many seem to have a relapse to a default position - old wives tales, or what that nice man from Nestle told them ... I didn't realise until I came on MN how lucky I'd been with my fabulous HV. Throw out the centile charts and ban formula advertising.

On the poster front, I do like "Every breastfeed makes a difference", but a poster campaign will have no effect on its own, imo.

HolidaysQueen · 20/04/2009 14:27

Having thought about it a bit before replying, I really like "Every breastfeed make a difference".

It makes absolutely no judgements about how much one should bf, for how long etc. As somebody who came to bf from an educated position (i.e. i knew the benefits and knew it was what i should do for my baby and for me) and felt enabled to do so (through NCT classes, supportive family etc.), I still found the idea of 6 months ebf as recommended by the govt so very daunting. For a woman from a background where there are no bf role models and no support, i can imagine that the govt guidelines (and the unimaginative way that many HCPs just repeat them parrot fashion) can just seem beyond her capabilities and then perhaps ff, as her norm, becomes more appealing. A slogan like Every Breastfeed Makes A Difference makes it much easier for somebody to start with one feed, then move onto the next, and the next etc. and just see how they get on. It doesn't set any seemingly impossible goals, and it also allows any woman who breastfed, for however long, to feel proud that they did make a difference to their baby's (and their own) health whatever the circumstances in which they stopped.

Laugs · 20/04/2009 14:32

I think Every Breastfeed Makes A Difference is a great slogan, really positive for everyone from those who gave the baby one feed to those who stuck at it for a year.

It would be quite a good mantra for midwives too. The idea that just because you've started it, you are not committing to anything long term, but just trying your best each time.

I think it's the sort of saying that would stick in your head during those awful nights when there really is a temptation to reach for the formula. Being able to say to yourself, "If I can just do one more feed and then in the morning decide whether to carry on" is very useful. In the morning it is never as bad.

In contrast I think Give the Best of Yourself is a little bit negative. Many of us feel that we are giving every little bit of ourselves in the early days, whether we BF or not.

StealthPolarBear · 20/04/2009 14:40

Qally that's awful!
(What is the JR by the way?)
Yes, every breastfeed makes a difference would help people to remember to take one feed at a time.

JulesJules · 20/04/2009 15:33

I took JR to be the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford, am still bemused by "board certified lactation consultant" though

hanaflower · 20/04/2009 16:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CherryChoc · 20/04/2009 16:23

I have to agree with the Every Breastfeed Makes a Difference and also on the more support needed fronts!

I think that slogan is much better than Breast is Best - I know that a lot of people never start bf because they will be returning to work early, or they want their partner to be able to give a bottle (and though I agree this is a bit of a non-reason, it IS a deciding factor for some women) or for another related reason, because they don't realise that it is possible to mix-feed, so they choose to bottlefeed from the start.

LadyFio · 20/04/2009 16:25

I left school in 1992 i think but we did not cover breastfeeding but covereds ex, masturbation and LOADS of stuff on STIs. Obv everyone in our area had nobrot

standanddeliver · 20/04/2009 16:54

"board certified lactation people get hold of them (what IS one of those?)"

It's someone with a particular qualification in lactation support.

Personally I know several people who have this qualification (two are also NCT trained bf counsellors as well). They are very good at what they do, and have helped lots of mums in very difficult situations.

Obviously they don't always get it right, as Qally knows to her cost. Qally - did you complain to your lactation consultant's professional body?

PSCMUM · 20/04/2009 17:57

elkiedee, sorry, shoudl have made clear- i was a teen mum, i was mates with lots of other teen mums, and so that is where my experience comes frmo, it was literally their lack of comfort with their bodies and their immaturity and not being able to do what they knew what was best for their kids becuase they were embarassed about their bodies and felt their tits were about sex, not food! I bf, i got a few raised eye brows, but I'd had it drummed into me that bf was best (from my mum, my MIL, reading any book at all that is not written by SMA, nestle or similar bastards) and so I was going to do it come hell or highwater. I agree marching up to teen mums saying 'this is what you SHOULD do' is not going to help, but giving them an honest account of the difference it makes toyour baby would really have helped. All this nicey nicey 'thats ok, you don't feel confortable, thats fine, give them a bottle' just means that they didn't have to properly think about it at all...if they';d said no, I'm not bfing, and the HV or whoever had siad 'well you know what, lets have a chat about that because its easier than you think, its really good gfor baby blah blah with aall the comparative info' that would have made them have an informed choice to make, not just copy those around them...if everyone around you bfs, you see that as normal. if eveyone around you ffs, and one poster tells you that breastfeeding is nice, but NOTHING more, then you are probably going to ff aren't you. i realyl don't get the defence of ff. it is weird. And I speak as somenoe who couldn't bf my youngest for medical reasons I won't go into..i would ahev WELCOMED a HV or midwife asking me to explain why I'd taken the unhealthy option, as it would have meant they were taking a blind bit of notice. I don't know, its an emotional subject, but breast is best and i'm not sure everyone, partic teen mums and people not so confident / educated etc, know the extent to which it is best and so that it is worth a bit of giggling when you get your boobs out"

elkiedee · 20/04/2009 20:24

PSCmum, when you explain your views like that it's a lot more persuasive.

Qally, what a horrific experience you had.

I'm fascinated by the discussion developing re the content of personal development lessons, or who should be taught child development. I think the idea that teaching child development to all pupils, and at the same time as science subjects seen as more scientific, not instead, is a good one. And including breastfeeding in that. As well as all the arguments being put forward, future doctors and nurses would learn something about this before they start university courses or other training.

Qally · 20/04/2009 21:47

My community midwife - who was absolutely lovely - had her own appointment file, NHS standard, emblazoned with, "BReastfeeding: Every Day Counts" on it, which is a not dissimilar slogan. Didn't stop her suggesting formula instead of establishing the primary issue when my ds lost 20% of bodyweight in 5 days, though.

I'm sorry, but I can't see a slogan changing a thing. There are millions in use already, the wards are slathered with posters advocating bf. It's singing to the choir. Better education at a far earlier age into excactly what the differences are, so more women start, and more support of a competent nature once they have, is the way forward in my opinion and experience. And by "advice" I mean "tailored to the individual woman", because I know several people who completely went over to formula after a month or 6 weeks of struggling with pure demand feeding, as their babies demanded on the hour. Mix feeding or a 3 hour routine might be a damn sight less good than on demand at establishing supply, but it's also a damn sight better than 100% formula, because if 100% baby-led is the only way, some people just cannot cope. It isn't weak to be so exhausted you can't get up, and want to die. It's just sleep deprivation beyond the bearable. The rules are hugely helpful as a guideline, but there needs to be an acknowledgement that some women will be just fine making variations, and if they've reached the end of their rope then trying to slacken it a little and seeing if anything eases is better than giving up completely.

As to complaints - I plan to once I have moved next month. I hadn't the energy earlier, but also I've been scared by the fact that the lc who was actually negligent (the other was just crap and useless and self-important, and that's a bit broad as a ground for complaint) was formerly a midwife at my local hospital and still mates with the midwives there, who recommended her, albeit off the record. I didn't fancy giving birth to my second as the woman who set an investigation in train into their colleague, really.

It is the John Radcliffe Breastfeeding Clinic in Oxford, yes. Sally Inch and Chloe Fisher are remarkable women and if they were paid what they deserve, they'd make George Clooney look poor. If I ever win the lottery I am starting a training school, run by them. I only found them by fluke - I ended up emailing Dr Jack Newman in sheer sobbing desperation, and he emailed me back by return and basically said "Take your baby to Chloe Fisher's people in Oxford." He was amazingly lovely, too.

hunkermunker · 20/04/2009 22:50

Thank you more for all your thoughts and sharing your ideas and experiences. Qally

I think there's been a shift in things since I had DS1 in 2004, I really do. Certainly people I'm meeting who are in positions to do something about it have breastfeeding very high up their agendas.

And the way it's being spoken about is changing - the "don't make women feel guilty" line is being challenged more regularly - because all it does is stifle debate and progression of service provision.

I agree that a slogan isn't the thing that will persuade women to breastfeed and that good, consistent practice from health professionals and better education for younger children is key - and a raft of other things too - but we live in a marketing world and if you have a crummy slogan (like "please breastfeed" ), it can actively dissuade people.

Thank you again.

OP posts:
Peachy · 21/04/2009 09:27

'And the way it's being spoken about is changing - the "don't make women feel guilty" line is being challenged more regularly - because all it does is stifle debate and progression of service provision.'

Interesting.

I always feel when someone posts something pro BF and someone else posts but that's not fair on.... (people who cannot BF) as id we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.

It's how it is focussed though.

I didn't manage to BF ds1 past a few weeks, for actually sound medical reasons I know but there was nobody to tell me that at the time (I only found his FTT was allergy realted years after) IYSWIM. I did, to all intenets give up although by accident it was best for him. I felt terrbly guilty indeed and its not a positive emotion.

But pro BF stuff- the posters, info,BFI course work forced me into didn't make me feel guilty, but motivated to manage it next time around (ds3 mixed fed untl 16 months, ds4 still EBF bar solid at a year).

Women as a hwoile need to take some responsibility not for interpreting things as 'I failed' (and of course we can support that b challenging the I failed comment- something I do tend to attempt) but as 'I'll have another shot and be more prepared next time'.

And i think that's where things such as the week - by - week achievements stuff comes in: a focus on what you are doing as a positive rather than a success / failure approach.

(sorry i'm sure thats waffle but IKWIM LOL)

tiktok · 21/04/2009 09:51

The 'don't make women feel guilty' line is being challenged, I think, more and more, but it is still used. Even pictures of women breastfeeding in maternity units are unwelcome by some - I am not referring to this thread here, but an issue local to me, where midwives (yes) lobbied for the removal of breastfeeding photographs which decorated the wards, because they 'made women who were not breastfeeding feel guilty'. They were overruled by the midwifery management, happily.

Peachy, I agree about women taking responsibilty - this is part of treating women as grown ups, and it will be helped by grown up, knowledgable breastfeeding support which shares information with women. So if bf is proving to be more stressful and/or time consuming than a mother feels she can cope with, then she needs to know what the consequences of formula might be, positive and negative, short and long term. And if she decides to use formula (which is hardly ever the sole option, though she might feel it is the right one for her), there should be no judgement - implied or otherwise.

In return, this same mother is less likely to judge herself (I like to think!) or castigate the world for 'making me feel guilty'.

I also wish women would complain. That's part of taking responsibility and being grown up, too. Sorry, Qally, I don't think your reason to withhold complaining until you move outside the area is a sound one...most women don't move between their first and second baby anyway. There are many ways to complain - you don't need to demand a formal investigation or legal process or whatever. A carefully written letter stating the facts and asking for an assurance that steps will be taken to address the shortcomings is fine.

Complaints should be followed up - that is, write again if no reply. I would like to see complainers offering to meet with managers face to face to discuss the issues, too, which is not possible when you have moved away!

tiktok · 21/04/2009 09:52

Qally - sorry, forgot to say....the lactation consultant is probably part of LCGB, too, and you can complain about her too.

standanddeliver · 21/04/2009 10:22

I honestly think that there are many women out there who would have a good legal case to sue their trust for giving out non-evidence based advice that results in the early cessation of breastfeeding.

I sometimes wonder if this is the only way to make the NHS get its house in order.

I don't know if any of you remember that I posted a couple of months back about my depressing experiences working on a postnatal ward as a maternity support worker (I'd only just started the job). Well - it got worse. I was sent out to shadow an experienced mat support worker in the community, doing visits to new mums. It became clear to me very quickly that this girl had no training or education to speak of in breastfeeding support. It didn't matter what the problem was the mum was having: sore nipples, jaundiced baby, mastitis, problems attaching the baby because of inverted nipples. She gave the same advice to every single woman: "Just make sure the baby's mouth is wide open on the breast - then everything will be fine." Literally - exactly the same words to every single mum. She wasn't able to tell if a baby was well attached or not - she hardly bothered to check. I did about a dozen visits with her and not once did she suggest that the mother see a breastfeeding counsellor - despite the fact that we saw two sets of mums struggling to breastfeed twins under 6lbs. I remember visiting one house - first time mum with tiny twins, one with a cracking great haematoma on its head from an assisted birth. Both babies jaundiced. Mum was practically shaking with tiredness. She was trying to latch the babies on while we were there and all the maternity support worker wanted to do was get out the house so she could get home and have a full hours lunchbreak. She had her coat on and was standing at the door saying 'we've got to go' as I was trying to help this mum get herself and her babies comfortable. I felt so terrible. I wanted to phone the woman up afterwards and apologise.

And this maternity support worker has been in the post for 6 years.

And on the postnatal ward 90% of the breastfeeding 'help' was being given by HCA's with no training.

It's just shocking and depressing that so little value is placed on breastfeeding that they are happy to put women and babies in the hands of people who have no training and no education in lactation whatsoever.

And yesterday I met the new Breastfeeding Co-ordinator for the area who's being employed by the PCT. She's a health visitor. Her training in breastfeeding? She's done the 3 day Unicef training. And that's it.

It's just not good enough.

standanddeliver · 21/04/2009 10:29

I honestly think that there are many women out there who would have a good legal case to sue their trust for giving out non-evidence based advice that results in the early cessation of breastfeeding.

I sometimes wonder if this is the only way to make the NHS get its house in order.

I don't know if any of you remember that I posted a couple of months back about my depressing experiences working on a postnatal ward as a maternity support worker (I'd only just started the job). Well - it got worse. I was sent out to shadow an experienced mat support worker in the community, doing visits to new mums. It became clear to me very quickly that this person had no training or education to speak of in breastfeeding support. It didn't matter what the problem was the mum was having: sore nipples, jaundiced baby, mastitis, problems attaching the baby because of inverted nipples. She gave the same advice to every single woman: "Just make sure the baby's mouth is wide open on the breast - then everything will be fine." Literally - exactly the same words to every single mum. She wasn't able to tell if a baby was well attached or not - she hardly bothered to check. She gave no other advice than this. I did about a dozen visits with her and not once did she suggest that the mother see a breastfeeding counsellor - despite the fact that we saw two sets of mums struggling to breastfeed twins under 6lbs. I remember visiting one house - first time mum with tiny twins, one with a cracking great haematoma on its head from an assisted birth. Both babies jaundiced. Mum was practically shaking with tiredness. She was trying to latch the babies on while we were there and all the maternity support worker wanted to do was get out the house so she could get home and have a full hours lunchbreak. She had her coat on and was standing at the door saying 'we've got to go' as I was trying to help this mum get herself and her babies comfortable. I felt so terrible. I wanted to phone the woman up afterwards and apologise.

And this maternity support worker has been in the post for 6 years.

And on the postnatal ward 90% of the breastfeeding 'help' was being given by HCA's with no training.

It's just shocking and depressing that so little value is placed on breastfeeding that they are happy to put women and babies in the hands of people who have no training and no education in lactation whatsoever.

And yesterday I met the new Breastfeeding Co-ordinator for the area who's being employed by the PCT. She's a health visitor. Her training in breastfeeding? She's done the 3 day Unicef training. And that's it.

It's just not good enough.

I've left the job now. I was coming home from work in a state of rage every day and it wasn't good for my health or my happiness.

standanddeliver · 21/04/2009 10:30

Whoops. Double post. Ignore first, read second (didn't think first had worked, added a couple of sentences and hit 'post' again).

Qally · 21/04/2009 10:38

I always intended to complain. I discussed it with my mother some time ago, and we agreed I had a responsibility to other women to do so. We are in the process of getting supporting documentation from Mervyn Griffiths, my GP, the single good health visitor, and the JR. However it is, I feel, completely human to be nervous when the senior midwife at your local unit - who delivered your baby - is close enough to the person you are complaining about that she has flown to Australia to attend her daughter's wedding. It makes the move a huge relief from the complaint perspective, because my anxiety was that labour is painful when you cannot feel relaxed and safe in your surroundings.

Once I have started, it will be dealt with effectively. I have a couple of law degrees, and understand disciplinary systems very well, so I am unlikely to accept fobbing off with placatory letters. I want effective steps taken and I will insist they apprise me of what, precisely, those are.

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