Refusing to breastfeed

[HappyWife]

I think breastfeeding may be coming to an end for us! My little boy is 20 weeks old.

He used to get one bottle a day of formula - at bedtime, and then sometimes a night feed of formula too if he woke.

However about a month ago he'd start screaming during the last feed before the bedtime feed, and my supply felt really low so I changed that one to a bottle feed too.

In the last few days though, breastfeeding at all is a huge struggle. He will feed for 5 mins tops at each breastfeed, and then come off and start looking round the room. Often he'll come off, look around, and then cry with hunger again (and repeat times a million!). I could deal with that but he is also at times absolutely refusing to latch on and screaming himself purple with hunger but just totally refusing to breastfeed. When this happened two days ago eventually my hubby got cross and said to give him a bottle. I was loath to do this as I know that's a slippery slope to decreasing your milk. However it was that or let him cry with hunger. So hubby gave him a bottle and I expressed for 45 mins, both sides, and got 1oz total!

I've been drinking loads and loads of water (am weeing non-stop!) and eating good hearty nutritious food but it's making no difference.

My breasts feel really soft and empty apart from first thing in the morning, when he feeds best.

Is this him naturally weaning himself off the breast? Or my milk supply going?

I'm ok if this has to be the end of breastfeeding for us as I know I've done bl**dy well, because I battled in severe pain through 12 weeks of breast thrush! I NEVER thought I'd get this far. I just want to know what's going on though.

He's not feeding more frequently or waking more at night or anything so I don't think it's a growth spurt.

Any advice/experience gratefully received.

HW

I'm sure someone will be able to help/advise better but all I wanted to say was don't put too much emphasis on how much (or little) you manage to express- it's definitely not as efficient as baby!

12 weeks of thrush. Wow. I can't believe you stuck at it for so long, that is so amazing! You're brave

Your supply is weaning your baby. I had this with baby #3. I drank extra fluids and took long hot showers with the massage sprayer aimed at my breasts. I would express several times a day whether I needed it or not, massaging for several minutes before expressing. And tell your hubby to take a leap, the bottle will only make it worse.

I have no advice but I am sure someone wise like tiktok will be along soon - there is a good website Kellymom which has lots on BF so that might help you in the meantime.

Well done on getting this far and for being so dedicated!

was going to suggest upping your expressing if you are keen to carry on.

dd1 did wean herself like this though - she was so extremely nosy she wouldn't settle to feed, whether i was in a quiet darkened room or not. i took the easy option with her as she was so nosy, but ds1 refused a bottle full stop, so they're all different.

decisions, decisions! good luck with whatever you choose.

It does sound like your supply is dropping, and your ds has realised that milk comes straight out of a bottle and he doesn't have to work for it, so is preferring that.
There is a big growth spurt around this point (hence why a lot of 4-5 month olds get weaned on food early as they are displaying hunger signs, but for milk) He does need to feed loads to up your supply btu expressing is a good way to do that for him.
And I could never get loads when expressing but fed both dd's with no problem, I am just 'pump-challenged'

don't give up yet if you are not ready especially if you have had to battle through so much. There is another thread running at the mo about nursing strike it might be useful for you. It might just be a phase you can get through.

Thanks everyone. The thing is - I know he needs to feed to stimulate my supply but there are times where he literally will not latch! I mean he will genuinely cry with a mouthful of boob, bless him. Then sometimes he'll be persuaded to latch on again, he takes a few sucks and then starts crying again.

I also can't really feel myself letting down anymore although I know there is at least a little milk there.

If he's hungry and wont breastfeed I feel I need to offer him a bottle. I do know that's going to make things worse though but don't see what else I can do!

Not sure how helpful expressing is going to be if I can get so little out. I tried again tonight and got less than 1/2oz in about an hour! I wasn't with my DS at the time which I know helps, but I used to be able to express a good 5oz this time of night no trouble...

HW

hopefully someone expert will be along soon but I just wanted to say it's fairly normal for your breasts to feel soft at this stage, after the first few weeks you don't normally feel particularly full unless you've had to miss a feed for some reason - and also babies do get very distractable and hard to feed as they get older.

Having said that, if you are giving him formula in the night, at the bedtime feed and at the pre-bedtime feed that is a LONG time to go without feeding, I'm guessing that must be a good 12-14 hours without feeding at all?

Have you tried feeding in the night rather than giving a bottle? That can often up your supply fastest and he may be easier to feed if he's sleepy and snuggly.

Good luck...

btw don't worry too much about the water - you don't need to drink loads and loads, just make sure you aren't going thirsty. Weeing non-stop sounds like hard work!

Feeding more frequently is the way to increase supply, not drinking more

It might be that he is crying due to frustration that it takes a bit of time for let down to occur, as opposed to the quick flow from a bottle.
If you think this might be an issue, you could try breast compression to get your milk flowing, some good info here
www.drjacknewman.com/help/Breast-compression.asp
If you just give him a bottle each time he fusses then it will make it very hard for you to carry on breastfeeding.

FWIW, I have been breastfeeding on and off for about 4 years now and never had that much luck with expressing, esp not in the evenings.

Feeding him when he is sleepy might make things easier, lots of babies fuss less feeding at night or when sleepy.

Thanks theyoungvisiter.

Yeah my boobies used to be bursting full in the morning, now they are quite soft. He feeds best first thing in the morning (and so I should think!) but still not as well as he used to.

He's currently not waking in the night for a feed so can't do the breastfeed thing, but will try if he starts waking again.

I don't want to do the bedtime feed as a bf as he currently takes about 12oz at bedtime(!)

You could breastfeed him at bedtime and offer a bottle afterwards, that would help with your supply.
And yes its true you dont need to drink lots of water, just keep feeding him!

Am certainly no expert but could your ds be teething? I took mine to the drs a week or two ago as I was concerned he was crying his way through feeds (would appear very hungry but begin to cry as soon as he latched on and pop off again). All the dr could find was very swollen gums. It seems to come in waves. Some feeds he is fine; other times is very fussy.

I am sure that someone will give you good advice rearding supply etc. Well done for keeping going through thrush!

Some babies will feed well if you wake them - it depends on their personality but often you can just lift them up and they kind of suck in their sleep. Worth trying?

Pannacotta & Theyoungvisiter - yeah I probably have been overdoing it with the water You know what it's like, you just want to feel like you are doing SOMETHING productive!

I will try breastfeeding him at bedtime and offering the bottle afterwards but I suspect this may be a no-go as he's a canny li'l fella and has worked out that food comes after bath, and is already grizzling for it when I'm dressing him, so being confronted with a boob may provoke outrage!

I definitely have tried hard not to offer him bottles at times other than the ones that are offical bottle feeds. I wouldn't do it for him just fussing - it's the screaming, shuddering purple baby that has been like that for half an hour that makes me cave! He must be really stubborn to be that hungry and still refuse to breastfeed. Either that or there really isn't any milk there for him. Argh.

Sorry, you have already had some good advice regarding supply. My comment sounded dismissive of others advice.

If he might be teething, you could try offering him something cold to chew (flannel, teething ring etc)before you feed him. This sometimes seems to help.

Helms I don't think it's teeth - although I'll keep an eye on that. I'm just thinking if it was teeth then a bottle would bother him as much as a boob surely?

My little boy doesn't do the dream feed thing - we tried it a lot and he will either wake up and then be desperately upset at being awake, or feed and then be wide awake. Naughty bubs!

Aww thanks everyone. I appreciate the support. I know that if, when I was counting down to my target of 6 weeks in unimaginable pain, crying and writhing over every feed, I had been able to see myself now I wouldn't have believed it! I guess that's one of the reasons I'm keen to keep going if possible, but if not then I'm still hugely proud of myself because I never thought I could get this far.

HappyWife....a 12 oz bottle of formula at bedtime and then a bottle of formula in the night (or else he goes through, and doesnt breastfeed) is very likely to have an effect on anyone's milk supply...as theyoungvisiter says, this could be 12-14 hrs with no breastfeeding, and this reduces the milk supply. You may have got away with it for a while, but it takes its toll eventually.

It's a real shame after your struggles with pain

You can rescue things, however - you'll need to express if he is not willing to feed more often. If you want to keep up the bedtime bottle, make it a smaller one, and breastfeed afterwards.

Dont bother drinking more than you are thirsty for - makes no diff.

Having read your other posts it does sound like teething. Both DD's had a period of refusal when they had molars coming through. I used to rub Anbesol on their gums before feeding which seemed to help.
Definately latch him on before offering bottle and carry on expressing when you can, it doesn;t matter that it isn;t producing much as it isn't his sole source of nutrition, what it is doing is stimultaing your supply so that next time there will be something there.

Thing is though - I've been through this with the health visitor. He takes 12oz at night and has done for a while now and I absolutely could not get away with giving him a smaller bottle. For some reason he is super hungry at this time of night (he used to cluster feed all evening when we were bfing exclusively). I've tried offering him a smaller bottle cos I was worried about him getting all bloated with that much milk! However he will seriously cry until he gets enough milk to satisfy him, and a practically empty boob meets with a flat refusal and much screaming unfortunately

So does expressing stimulate supply even if you are getting 1/2 oz out in an hour? This confuses me as I always thought it was suppply and demand. I'm also not sure why I suddenly can express so little when I've always been able to express a lot.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. My HV is calling me tomorrow too - although she was the one who suggested drinking 3 litres of water a day so not much hope there! I'm not, by the way, but am drinking loads - too much from the sounds of things!

It does stimulate, if you think about it as a newborn, they latch and suck, when the supply runs down they keep on, letting your body know it needs to produce more, so the next time they carry on after it starts to run down, so your body knows to produce more next time and so on.

I think thats right anyhow, thats how I always understood it!

If you erad this there is lots of good info aboujt increasing supply (near the bottom)

You would do yourself a mischief with 3 litres a day

Expressing is hard work and can be a bit dispiriting, but everything you can do will help a bit. As others have said, your supply may have dropped because of the long no-feeding interval. But it is still not uncommon to be suddenly unable to express much and it to mean not very much at all.

at 3 litres of fluid a day....shows you how much this HV knows

HappyWife, 12 oz of formula at a time is a massive amount for any baby, of any age. Strikes me he is 'needing' it only in the sense that he needs this amount of sucking to go to sleep. To give him a smaller bottle may well mean he is unsettled and needs a lot of comforting and contact; you may need to work out the right combination of breast, formula, cuddling and ebm without letting him get too distressed. On the info you give here, you will not save your milk supply if he continues to have 12 oz of formula and this huge long time without breastfeeding.

My guess as to the reason why your expressing 'yield' has gone down so suddenly is that it sometimes happens suddenly like this - the calibration of supply/demand shows up kapow. Other women find it happens gradually, and of course it may be fine, as it calibrates downwards to the needs of the baby. In your case it calibrates down to what your body 'thinks' your baby wants, and it's rather less than he wants 'cos he's getting a lot of formula and he goes a long time overnight without breastfeeding. Would be worthwhile you giving one of the helplines a ring and talking about it.

Expressing a lot will help, whatever the yeild.

Thanks tiktok but he definitely needs the milk. He doesn't feed to sleep. He is awake and has a story for about 1/2 an hour after his bottle and then he is put in his cot and self settles. I do understand why you are concerned about this amount - goodness knows I have been - but we have tried everything with regards to comforting him instead and am now confident that he is hungry. Luckily for me I have a baby who rarely cries for anything other than hunger so we can go whole days with no tears in this house. I think I'm going to be in a for a shock if I ever have another!

I know what you're saying about it being a long time between breastfeeds. The initial plan was to switch to formula altogether but once I dropped the night feeds I managed to mostly clear the deep breast thrush, so we have continued.

I'll get busy with the breast pump today and see what happens. Typical HV hasn't called me - not that she'll be helpful.

Thanks everyone for your replies - I really appreciate it.

Thanks for the detail, HW. In that case, he has a chance to have a further breastfeed before he goes into his cot...after having less formula. Even 2 oz less would be a start.

Sorry to be blunt about this, but I would judge that if you don't substantially reduce that big bottle of formula, and substantially increase the no. of times milk is removed from your breasts, then breastfeeding will continue to dwindle....that's the bottom line, anyway!