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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

I expect this article will make some people very angry

123 replies

GinaFjord · 17/03/2009 10:07

the case against breastfeeding

OP posts:
tiktok · 24/03/2009 16:59

neenz - blueash's point about staying in hsopital for two weeks was not helpful. When women did that, the breastfeeding stats were at a nadir. The longer you are in hospital the less likely you are to bf on discharge - that's a fact!

piscesmoon · 24/03/2009 17:00

I don't think there is a case against breast feeding. Not everyone can do it and it isn't as easy as people would have you believe, I would have failed without help,so women shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. However bf is as nature intended, ff feeding is only as close a science can get.

tiktok · 24/03/2009 17:20

neenz - bf babies are readmitted for treatment of dehydration when their bf has not been going well, this is correct. This is not a 'risk' of breastfeeding, but a 'risk' of poor support of breastfeeding. You might as well say that when people are admitted for food poisoning, this shows a risk of eating.

There is excess mortality among formula fed babies in the developed world - this is not controversial, and the studies are clear. The excess is mainly in SIDS and childhood cancers. It is a small, but measurable, elevated risk, which persists after controlling for social and other factors. It is negligible in individual terms, and no one should be frightened for an individual baby, but on a public health level, it shows. I can supply references.

The differential is larger in developing countries , as we know.

In the end, it depends on how important these issues of health are to you - there are many more issues, like breast cancer in the mother, the relationship aspects, the intelligence aspects, the environmental aspect, the enjoyment aspect. A small difference in risk in the west of say, ear infection, may not be worth worrying about, but if it's your kid who's got ear ache then maybe you feel differently. Even a few cases of breast cancer, or SIDS, or leukaemia, saved a year have an effect on our health costs, too, quite apart from the emotional effect on families.

Blueash · 24/03/2009 17:28

I have already given a bit of my history only to be told that I am misinformed and my personal experiences are not bourne out by the stats. You are too fond of figures and stats and not fond enough of people and their feelings. If you are typical of the "help" on this site heaven help the new mothers and their babies.

tiktok · 24/03/2009 17:46

Oh FGS...blueash, you are like someone coming late to a party, overhearing a conversation, making assumptions about the people taking part in it, and sticking your oar in without thought. Just as in RL, when you come to a new website and a well-established thread, it's only polite not to make assumptions about people whose contributions and past posting you don't know. When you generalise, as you did, and get it wrong, you have to then expect something of a robust debate to ensue

People who know me here know full well I am very sensitive to people's feelings about breastfeeding. I am offering stats because I was asked to do so and neenz knows I may well have some to share.

Sorry you are feeling sore about being misinformed - this is what happens when people generalise out of their own experience and assume that what they observed has to be true for everyone. What's wrong with personal experience not being borne out by stats? It happens to us all!

tiktok · 24/03/2009 17:48

blueash, did you not see this post from neenz:

"Tiktok, can you please give the stats on BF babies v FF babies WRT their health and the benefits of BFing?"

Do tell me what I should have said to her....

BackToBasics · 24/03/2009 18:03

Blueash on Tue 24-Mar-09 14:38:41

I agree with that post alot.

When my ds was born at 10am , the hospital were practically kicking me out by noon. Then to go home and have a toddler to look after with no help, there was no way i could have devoted the time to bf.

I know a few people who have been in the same boat.

Blueash · 24/03/2009 18:31

I have problems at all with robust debate It is my opinion that breast feeding was easier to establish when women were in hospital with nothing else to do but concentrate on their baby.

That breast feeding rates were lower surprises me, it does not upset me or make me
sore because I don't believe I inferred that "everyone was doing it". In fact I even mentioned the 6,10,2 routine so you were well aware that I did not claim breast feeding to be universal.

I was not aware that one is supposed to observe some sort of apprenticeship before being considered "worthy" of posting on here either.

spongebrainbigpants · 24/03/2009 18:34

Blueash, I don't normally get involved in these debates because they upset me hugely, but I was interested in reading the debate between Neenz and TikTok cos I know Neenz from my post-natal thread!

However, just wanted to say that I think you have misunderstood TikTok - I don't agree with everything she has said on this thread, but she is well known on here for giving alot of support to mums struggling to bf and to those who have had to give up for whatever reason and are trying to come to terms with it.

I think you have judged her harshly.

tiktok · 24/03/2009 18:42

Thanks, sponge

Blueash, you can have whatever opinions you want. If they are based on a misunderstanding, then someone (in this case, moi) will come along and tell you.

In this case, you i) said that breast is best info is based on the time when people made their own formula - this was incorrect
ii) generalised out of your own experience about long stays leading to easier breastfeeding - may have been correct for you, but you were incorrect to generalise

Clearly, whatever I said about the statistics on bf in the 60s and 70s has had no effect because you are still of the same, generalised, opinion

No, no apprenticeship necessary, and of course anyone can post I only pointed out your appalling manners, that's all

standanddeliver · 24/03/2009 18:55

"Then to go home and have a toddler to look after with no help, there was no way i could have devoted the time to bf".

It's hard to look after a toddler or a baby alone full stop - whether breast or bottlefeeding. A newborn baby needs feeding and a mum needs to rest. I honestly can't see how bottlefeeding is much easier for a new mum in the early days.

Have to say, other than DH taking a few days paternity leave I didn't have help. Certainly no cleaners, nannies or parents taking other children off my hands. I found bf to be a blessing in this situation - more time sat around cuddling baby and other dc's, less time washing bottles or having to do two handed feeds. And of course you can always feed on the go if you're breastfeeding, which makes life as a busy mum MUCH easier.

standanddeliver · 24/03/2009 19:02

Blueash - I think you'll find there's been a change of focus since you were on the wards. Health professionals and feeding advisers are now expected and required to give 'evidence based' information and advice. The swing towards this practice in relation to breastfeeding has been hugely beneficial, because previous advice and information given to mothers (such as to feed to strict routines) arose from an ignorance of how breastfeeding actually works and did a lot of damage to their chances of succeeding.

piscesmoon · 24/03/2009 19:02

I had a 20 month old when I had a new baby and I couldn't have faffed around with bottles-bf was much easier.

Blueash · 24/03/2009 19:04

I don't think I have judged her harshly enough! She made it look as if I claimed breastfeeding to be universal. Then accused me of being misinformed about that. She put words into my mouth; accusing me of saying she was a bully. I did not say she was a bully I said that help and support was preferable to shock tactics and anything else was bullying (well words to that effect).

She says I must expect robust debate when she cannot handle it herself. She is lucky to have a friend like you and I hope she appreciates it.

tiktok · 24/03/2009 19:14

I didnt say you said breastfeeding was universal, blueash...cant think where you have that from. I said "When mothers were on postnatal wards for the two weeks you describe (probably from about 1950 to about 1975) breastfeeding rates plummeted...the reason they fell was at least partly to do with the fact that babies were routinely kept in nurseries and their feeds were scheduled."

Plummetted = fell. It does not mean there was no breastfeeding, or that I thought you believed breastfeeding was 'universal' - I really don't know what you are accusing me of, now You were misinformed, but not about bf being 'universal'. I did say you generalised out of your own experience, that is, you reckoned bf was easier to establish with a long postnatal stay...and it clearly wasnt, because that's when bf rates fell.

You accused me of bullying - that's quite clear as well! And I protested.

I love robust debate, BTW

standanddeliver · 24/03/2009 19:14

No she didn't. She challenged you on some of the assumptions you made in your posts and you didn't like it.

And Tiktok is in no way 'lucky' to be supported on this board - she's earned every bit of the respect and appreciation she gets here.

tiktok · 24/03/2009 19:15

Big mwah kisses to stand

standanddeliver · 24/03/2009 19:20

I'm not a flatterer tiktok but credit where credit is due.......

Blueash · 24/03/2009 19:28

I thought the slogan "Breast is best" was from a book written by Penny and Andrew Stanway on the subject.

tiktok · 24/03/2009 19:38

Yes - 'Breast is Best' was the title of a book by the Stanways, which was written long after commercial formula was used.

You said 'breast is best' came from the era when people made their own formula.

It didn't.

So you were misinformed.

DevilsAdvocaat · 24/03/2009 20:04

i totally agree with the sound advice given by tiktok in support of those who have ff and bfed.

tiktok rules.

(also, we aren't personal friends, she has never spoken directly to me before but i have followed her posts though bfing my son. it helped me a lot).

Blueash · 24/03/2009 20:15

I am not sure if the Stanways originally coined the phrase or if they adopted it and a Google search has not enlightened me.

tiktok · 24/03/2009 22:55

Keep looking, blueash....maybe you'll find you were right, and that 'breast is best' is only intended to mean 'best' in comparison with home made formula.

Thanks, devilsadvcaat

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