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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

I expect this article will make some people very angry

123 replies

GinaFjord · 17/03/2009 10:07

the case against breastfeeding

OP posts:
tiktok · 18/03/2009 10:18

chequers, what on earth do you mean by 'It's all a matter of interpretation I guess tiktok.'

Is there another way of interpreting accusations of being disgusting, selfish, exhibitionist blah blah blah?

chequersmate · 18/03/2009 10:23

Sorry Tiktok, didn't make that clear.

Firsly - your interpretation of the friend who thinks ff is wrong is rather benign, that's fine, but it's your interpretation.

Secondly, you say that it's less poisonous to think that ff is wrong than it is to think that breastfeeding is wrong. Well, I think that's a matter of interpretation actually, and I wouldn't say any one is more or less poisonous than the other.

Hope that's clearer now.

tiktok · 18/03/2009 10:44

I get ya, now, chequers.

No, I did not say I thought saying 'formula is wrong' is 'less poisonous' than saying 'breastfeeding is wrong'.

I said saying 'formula feeding is wrong' is simplistic, but less poisonous than saying breastfeeding is disgusting, selfish, exhibitionist and cow like, and will make breasts sag. I still think that. I think these things are poisonous as they are cruel, personal and just nasty....in a way that 'formula feeding is wrong' just isn't.

If you're going to interpret me, at least get what I am actually saying correctly.

I am aware that people will criticise mothers for formula feeding, but we are a formula feeding society - the vast majority of babies are formula fed, and formula feeding is done everywhere with no comment or assumption that the mother should cover up or hide. Formula feeding is part of the cultural furniture in a way that breastfeeding just isn't.

No one needs to be 'enabled' or 'empowered' to formula feed. Not the case with breastfeeding....

chequersmate · 18/03/2009 12:00

We'll just have to agree to disagree tiktok

chequersmate · 18/03/2009 12:07

Sorry, think I also need to clarify that I am both GinaFjord and chequersmate - had changed to a different name on one computer but kept using a different one which had my own name saved.

Mummyella · 18/03/2009 12:15

However someone chooses to feed their baby then they are sure to be being disapproved of by somebody, and we mums just don't need this on top of all of the diffculties of caring for a baby. Lay off all the criticism - we are all doing a difficult job and it just isn't helpful. Bf loud and proud and publicly if that is what you believe in, but give other people the right to follow their own judgement too. I like the idea of the 'good enough' mum. Life is about muddling through doing the best you can and feeding little ones is no different.

tiktok · 18/03/2009 12:22

Mummyella - who is criticising and disapproving? No one on this thread - but you are implying there are people taking part in this discussion who are saying people should not have the right to 'follow their own judgement'.

That's two pious warnings you've given - lay off

I thank you.

EyeballsintheSky · 18/03/2009 13:08

It's not 'nice' to think that, Tiktok. It's all I have to hold on to, otherwise I will spend my life wondering if anything that DD develops could have been my fault for not being able to bf.

Nothing about desperately wanting to bf and not being able to for whatever reason is nice

StarlightMcKenzie · 18/03/2009 13:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

EyeballsintheSky · 18/03/2009 13:12

Sorry, meant to add that I don't mean to direct this specifically at you Tiktok. I know how much you do for everyone on here with bf issues - you were one of the people I remember talking to at the time.

I should stay off these threads. Whichever way they wend up going, they hurt and it's a fait accompli as far as DD is concerned.

tiktok · 18/03/2009 13:21

eyeballs, come on.....you were the one who used the word 'nice' - and I challenge you on that, knowing and appreciating that you had a rotten time .

My point is that pretending bf/ff doesn't make any difference simply in order to protect people's feelings doesn't protect the next generation of women who will be similarly let down.

When people feel raw and hurt, then I can understand if they feel they should stay off the threads that discuss these issues.

But plenty of women who had a bad bf experience do grasp the fact that pretending for the sake of comfort helps no one in the long term. It's also belittling and trivialising - like saying 'stop fretting - you are making a fuss about nothing'. Who does that help?

standanddeliver · 18/03/2009 14:44

"I like the idea of the 'good enough' mum. Life is about muddling through doing the best you can and feeding little ones is no different."

Unfortunately in the UK, breastfeeding - which the vast majority of women a) want to do and b) are able to do (given the right support) has been allocated 'ideal' status, while bottlefeeding is seen as 'good enough', ie 'normal'.

I don't think it's acceptable or fair on women or babies that the issue is presented to us in this way. Breastfeeding is the physiologically normal way for a baby to be fed. Thousands and thousands of women every year failing to breastfeed because of crap advice and support is not 'good enough'.

MamacitaGordita · 18/03/2009 15:27

"Unfortunately in the UK, breastfeeding - which the vast majority of women a) want to do and b) are able to do (given the right support) has been allocated 'ideal' status, while bottlefeeding is seen as 'good enough', ie 'normal'."

Very well said, standandeliver. I totally agree.

PrettySprinkles · 18/03/2009 19:13

Multi-Vitamins can be a good way of getting the right nutrients into people. Or they could eat a balanced diet, with 5 fruits/veg a day, not too much saturated fats, plenty of fibre, etc. The government and NHS are non-stop pushing healthy eating for all but babies. Food supplements are there for people who can't get enough of what they need. It's not an excuse to eat donuts and just take a pill to fix the nutrition.

Formula milk should be viewed in the same way, as a food supplement. It is there for people who can't breastfeed. I'm sure most people would frown on those who raised their children on lucozade and vitamin pills. I'm sure there are also some kids who manage to thrive just eating burgers and chips just as formula-fed babies do. Is that 'good enough'? No. They end up on 'Freaky Eaters'. Hell parents who mis-feed their children can even end up with social-services taking their kids off them!

The woman who wrote this article would be the one outside the secondary school with the new healthy lunch menu, smuggling chips and turkey twizzlers in for her kids. Breastfeeding is the best start a child can have. Certainly some people can't breastfeed for whatever reason and they should be assured that there is a substitute available. The others choose not to give their child the healthiest start.

Mummyella · 18/03/2009 21:53

Ouch, tictoc and fair point on me sounding pious (I should read my posts before I click send ) but I do think that there is a judgemental feel to this thread.

E.g. 'FF is NOT a close second to breastfeeding.'

' ...saying 'formula feeding is wrong' is simplistic, but less poisonous than saying breastfeeding is disgusting...'

I may not be getting you, but saying 'formula feeding is wrong' is more than simplistic, it is critical and disapproving - r u defending this view??

I guess I think that high quality support and infomation matters (and this is already working to swing the pendulum in favour of BF at least in some sections of society) but for each individual the decision carries a unique bunch of considerations some of which are compelling.

Mummyella · 18/03/2009 21:55

Erm that's Tiktok (never could spell)

tiktok · 18/03/2009 22:12

mummyella, apols accepted for pious tone

The statement 'formula feeding is not a close second to breastfeeding' is not judgemental. It is a statement of fact. It implies no judgement of the people who use formula, for whatever reason - it is, in fact, true that formula feeding is not a 'close second'. In fact, in the hierarchy, it comes fourth (1. bf 2. ebm 3. donor milk 4. formula). If no breastmilk is available, then of course babies need formula, but pretending that it's 'close' does not help a grown-up debate.

I do think that someone's childless friend saying 'formula feeding is wrong' is critical an disapproving - I would never say this, because it is simplistic, and it does not take into account individual circumstances. I was comparing it in viciousness to the sticks people use to bash breastfeeding with - and finding it rather milder in comparison than occasions where mothers are told that breastfeeding is disgusting and weird and abusive and so on.

Of course each individual has their own circumstances which influence their choice - no one is arguing with you!

Mummyella · 18/03/2009 22:29

Have never actually heard anyone saying bf is disgusting, weird and abusive (except in the case of very prolonged BF of older children), and, um, it DOES make your breasts sag.

I am sure that these exteme views are out there but you can exaggerate the extent of anti-bf predudice. A vague feeling of 'Ew, no thanks, not for me' is more typical of anti-bf sentiment, (and I have breastfed my two, in cafe's, on trains and buses, in parks, in a church, with never experiencing more than a raised eyebrow.)

tiktok · 18/03/2009 23:12

You can't have been on mumsnet much if you have never heard anyone say these things - they have been posted here directly, and people have reported these things as having been said to them.

It's pregnancy that makes your breasts sag - if they sag. Breastfeeding has very little impact - there's plenty of research on this.

I agree that extreme views are rare - fortunately.

standanddeliver · 19/03/2009 08:44

mummyella, I'm 43, I've done 5 years of breastfeeding, and my breasts are in much better shape than many of my friends who bottlefed or bf for a short time. Bf doesn't make your breasts sag - it's pregnancy and genetics. Some women are going to end up with envelope flaps whatever they do!

chequersmate · 19/03/2009 08:45

My breasts were the only thing that came out of the whole pregnancy/breastfeeding thing unscathed.

tiktok · 19/03/2009 10:07

Well, mine are flippin gorgeous .....

neenztwinz · 24/03/2009 13:47

Tiktok, can you please give the stats on BF babies v FF babies WRT their health and the benefits of BFing?

I consider myself a militant BFer, I BF twins exclusively and think everyone should BF etc etc, but I know lots of babies who are FF and they are absolutely fine, healthy, thriving babies. This is what makes me think it is a close second. It is not what I would want for my babies, but I just cannot see the evidence in my day-to-day life that FF is so bad for babies. Like I said earlier in this thread, my DH was FF. I was BF. But I don;t see any difference between us health-wise now we are in our 30s.

I am truly NOT trying to be controversial here, I would really like to see the stats, that's all.

Blueash · 24/03/2009 14:11

I breastfed my children and had no problems whatsoever. I think the advice "breast is best" was meant for the days when formula was homemade and therefore hit and miss and the sterilization was a problem. These days I don't think it is important as it was but if you can do it all well and good. If you cannot do not torment yourself about the consequences of "failure".

tiktok · 24/03/2009 14:25

neenztwins - you have put your finger on why this topic can produce such polarised opinions. What we see in our day-to-day lives is very often what you see - babies who were ff and who do not have major health problems. We also compare our own direct experience of our health to the stats.

But that's not really good enough! Research takes many thousands and thousands of babies, and among other things, counts their episodes of infection, hospital admission, rates of obesity, development of diabetes, incidence of cot death, and so on and on. It then finds out feeding experiences. It also finds out social and economic factors and number crunches the whole thing to ensure these social and economic factors are controlled for (so we are measuring feeding, not deprivation levels). This takes us way, way beyond anything that we can observe in daily life, I'm sure you can understand.

To give you another example: I know (fortunately) no one who was killed in a car crash because of not wearing a seat belt. In fact, I grew up in a family where no one bothered with car seats for us kids. My dh was the opposite - his mother was very conscious of safety issues like this. We have both survived, but we are both fanatic about in-car safety for our kids and other passengers. I have realised that my own experience and observation is pretty worthless when it comes to judging car safety - the statistics have convinced me, even if the law didn't. This does not mean I think ff is the same as not wearing a seat belt - I am using this example only to demo. the value of research and statistics.

If you want to read the evidence, then a good site to visit is www.babyfriendly.org.uk which has a good collection of referenced articles, so you can read for yourself the difference, not just to infant health but to maternal health, as well.