Is it possible that some of us just have crap boobs?

[ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight]

Sorry if that sounds weird but have just been mulling over my BF experience and comparing it to my SIL whose 9 day old DS is feeding like a dream. Hers just seem to work as they should, they got big in the last trimester, they are very engorged now, she drips milk when he cries, her nipples are bigger and darker etc etc. I know not every woman gets all these things and can still BF well but I had literally none of them and despite trying everything never had enough milk. I think my boobs are just a bit crap.

Thinking about the next time I do this, do electric pumps work much better than hand pumps? I think if I could express milk it would hae helped...

Sometimes I think this too. My boobs were never up nor down during the whole time I was pg with dd. Never leaked. Nips got a wee bit darker. Bra size never changed. Couldn't bf at all, and was so very upset about it! I'm currently 34 weeks with dc2 and am hoping it will be different this time, boobs have changed a bit, more swollen, leaking a wee bit, am hoping they will behave better!

Think it depends on the baby too, birth circumstances, and in my case, general uptightness as was pfb, and I was terrified she would starve. Hoping I'll be a bit more relaxed this time round. I guess I can't really answer your question as such, but I do feel the same.

A very few women can't BF. There's a tendency on here to assume that means none but it doesn't, it means a very few and maybe you were in that group.

bt experiences differ also- my first ex bf baby is ds4,and I tried with all of them: education and experiences help massively so never assume you cannot feed your next baby.

But if o can't feed for whatevre reason its not the end of the world. Defintiely worth a go but please- it doesnt mean your ody is crap!. Just that its not perfect: neither is mine,I cant see very well forexample. Hey ho.

Gen up on the kellymom website, a see acounellor but if you stillcan't feed dont feel bad, its so sad when people do (and I definitely did).

I couldn't! And I tried for 8 weeks! I could only EVER get her to latch on with a nipple shield, it was a nightmare. I was soo keen to bf that I beat myself up about it. I had midwives, health visitors, la leche, nct bf counsellors and even a doula trying to get her to latch on - she was having none of it. Rubbish boobs. Still, will try with next one.

I never leaked or got engorged or had big nipples and my breasts didn't grow hugely during my pregnancy. I breastfed ds for 3 years 10 months and dd is still breastfeeding aged 19 months .

The things you have highlighted are not indicators of ability to breastfeed, honestly. For example, the extent to which women leak is though to be related to the tone of specific small muscles in the chest.

Have you thought about talking your experience through with a bf expert to try to understand why you never had enough milk? Often talking through the whole experience (including type of labour and birth) can be revealing. It's esepcially important if you're planning another and would like to breastfeed again. Occasionally there is a physical reason, but more often it's something else.

i didn't have any of those things, but still breastfed successfully.

it IS possible for people to just not produce any/enough milk. but it's a teeeeeny proportion of women.

I had none of the things you listed and did not have brilliant/easy BFing experience with any of mine.
However: am still BFing DS3 who will be 1 year in a few days and am dead chuffed with myself!! With hindsight the biggest difference this time was that I was absolutely adamant that I was going to BF this baby. I put lots of planning into place to have help for DSs 1 and 2 and sat on my backside all hours that are sent and BF the blessed baby . It took to at least 3, maybe 4 months for it to not be an effort anymore and I really only started enjoying it when he was over 6 months old, had started weaning v successfully and I did not feel the pressure to provide all sustenence for him all of the time.
BTW, I did have lots of support and help to try and BF DSs 1 and 2 but for various different reasons they were both mixfed and switched to FF altogether before they were 6 months old.
In summary, IMVHO, most important thing for successful BF, all other things being equal, is sheer pigheadedness ... and a not too tender fanjo so you CAN sit a lot

Good luck!

When I was pregant I only went up one bra size (that was before I even found out I was) and it didnt even change when I was feeding him. My nipples didnt really change colour or size and was not until a few days of feeding that any think started leak.

To give you an idea of how little my chest chanaged after, 2 weeks of feeding my son I went into mothercare to get some nice feeding bra's (with out my son) and the nice shop lady said she that she thought 'I should come back later in my pregancy when my boobs stared to change' when I told here I had him 2 weeks before she thought I joking about beast feeding him.

After reading the promblems that other mums have had, I am so lucky that my son was such a good little feeder. But I will say that as soon as a got upset or stressed you could tell at first, so my music on my head phones live saver. But once I got going I carried on until he chanaged on to cows milk.

I hope that anyone who had problems first time around will try again if that have a next time.
Sorry if this posts abit long.

PS : I agree with Mummyfor3: 'sheer pigheadedness' helps alot.
Stressing about it dont work well but sheer pigheadedness did work for me, plus luck with having a hungery baby.

I just saw this thread (a bit late) & I'm responding because I've had these exact thoughts. I.e. that my boobs are 'just not good enough', they never really grew size, never leaked too much (although they did for the first couple of months); plus I felt at different times that my milk supply was never really great, that I had to make an effort to keep it up, and very quickly it would become low again, if I stopped expressing, stopped feeding that much etc. I know they say that women in most cases have enough milk to go on, but I'm not necessarily convinced on that, or maybe what I'm saying is that it doesn't take the same amount of effort for each woman. Remember too- not all women are able / willing to feed completely on demand, and that (in some cases) may compromise milk supply (if feeds are not replaced with expressing).

On the plus side though, my DS is now almost 8 months & I'm still bf him- about 2 / 3 feeds per day, so I'm so happy that it worked out & is still going on. BF- especially after weaning at 6 months- does not necessarily have to be an all or nothing thing, some women (me included) find it easier after a point to do mixed feeding, you can go on- after a certain point- even when things are not that 'perfect' (e.g.. even if you feel your milk is not that great). I think once you're past that initial difficult phase, BF can & should be a pleasure, it does get much easier.

Yes I think it is possible. My boobs were fine but my sis has flat nipples and it just never worked for her despite a myriad of counsellors and help.

Just because someone comes on here and says 'well I had that and still breastfeed for 3 yrs cos I stuck it out with bleeding nips etc and am considerably tougher than you' does not invalidate your experience. For some women, even if it is tiny minority, it jsut ain't gonna happen and you should not feel guilty about it.

Plenty of women on the other hand have terrible support and that is why they think they can't breastfeed which is very sad.

yes Susie I agree, it's not just can someone bf, it's also how many hurdles / problems one is prepared to endure in order to bf successfully. It really is not equally important to all women to persevere- and the 'pig-headedness' others describe really makes a difference in cases where bf doesn't come easily (the reasons why it's not equally important to all women would make for another, interesting, thread....)

Flat nipples were my problem. It was bloody awful.

Don't know about boobs being "just a bit crap" (although I know what you mean - I remember feeling a bit like this), but I am sure there are lots of physiological reasons why it is harder for some of us than others.

Here is an interesting article on the effects of anaemia on milk production. I had never heard of this as being a potential cause of problems with milk supply until someone mentioned it on here recently. If it is right, it seems amazing that it isn't more commonly recognised, given how common anaemia is in pregnancy.

You're right that anaemia can affect milk production, and may be a concern if a mum has had a big blood loss after birth.

However, anaemia in preganacy... it's a bit of a minefield. Essentially, the use of Hb levels as an indicator of anaemia in late pregnancy is very dubious. Late in pregnancy there are well documented physiological changes to the blood volume. These are incredibly often mis-interpreted as anaemia.

The following is an extract from the Primal Health Research newsletter vol 7 no 4 written by Michel Odent and including references:

"When a woman has a haemoglobin concentration in the region of 9.0 or 9.5 at the end of her pregnancy, there are two possibilities. More often than not she will meet a practitioner (doctor or midwife) who is not interested in epidemiological studies and who thinks that iron deficiency in pregnancy can be detected via the haemoglobin concentration. She will be told that she is anaemic and she will be given iron tablets. She will understand that there is something wrong in her body that needs to be corrected.

It can happen, on the other hand, that a pregnant woman with a similar haemoglobin concentration meets a practitioner who is aware of the most significant epidemiological studies and who is interested in placental physiology. This practitioner has digested the huge and authoritative study by a London team about the relation between maternal haemoglobin concentration and birth outcomes (1). Birth outcomes of 153 602 pregnancies were analysed (the haemoglobulin measurement used in the study was the lowest recorded during pregnancy). They found that the highest average birth weight was in the group of women who had a haemoglobin concentration between 8.5 and 9.5. Their main conclusion was that "the magnitude of the fall in haemogloblin concentration is related to birth weight".A similar pattern occurred in all ethnic groups. Furthermore it appeared that when the haemoglobin concentration fails to fall below 10.5, there is an increased risk of low birth weight and preterm delivery. Similar conclusions have been reached by other - yet smaller - epidemiological studies (2,3). This sort of practitioner is also probably aware of the many studies that fail to demonstrate that iron supplementation may improve birth outcomes (4). When such a practitioner suspects anaemia, he (she) prescribes specific tests such as erythrocyte protoporphyrin, transferrine saturation or serum ferritin.

References

-1- Steer P, Alam MA, Wadsworth J, Welch A. Relation between maternal haemoglobin concentration and birth weight in different ethnic groups. BMJ 1995; 310:489-91

-2- Koller O, Sandvei R, Sagen N. High hemoglobin levels during pregnancy and fetal risk. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1980; 18:53-56.

-3- Garn SM, et al. Maternal hematologic levels and pregnancy outcome. Semin Perinatol 1981; 5:155-62.

-4- Hemminki E, Starfield B. Routine administration of iron and vitamins during pregnancy. Br J Obst Gynaecol 1978; 85: 404-410."

That is interesting, grendle. But I seem to remember haemoglobin tests happening rather earlier in my pregnancy. If levels are low at 6 or 7 months, would that not make anaemia (and possible milk supply problems) more likely after birth?

The point is, that HB concentration is not an accurate indicator of anaemia in pregnant women. It may be OK at the start of pregnancy, but in late pregnancy other tests are more accurate. In study (1) above they used the lowest concentration measured, whether this was at 26-28 weeks or 34-36 weeks.

If anaemia is suspected, then practitioners should be measuring erythrocyte protoporphyrin, transferrine saturation or serum ferritin.

Whether or not true anaemia at 6-7 months is predictive of milk supply problems I do not know. That would require a proper study .

Full text here

I know women of all shapes, sizes etc can bf, albeit incredibly tough at times and with a lot of help/support (not always available sadly).

But I do wish I had bigger nipples!! I am bf DS fine (despite the evils of thrush which I still have, sigh) but have the tiniest nipples ever. The whole way through pg I was like, 'any day now they'll grow' but nope. Can't help but think it'd have been easier with something bigger!!

Hi Kat,

I have used both hand and electric pumps. With ds bf didn't work out. Broke my heart, but it just didn't. I used an electric pump to supply ebm for 3 months. The disadvantages of mine were that it was noisy, so I couldn't hear to speak on the phone/listen to radio or tv. Also you can't wander very far from the socket. So expressing was BORING! On the other hand I used to get cramp in my hands from the hand pump which was rubbish too.

With dd have pretty much only used the hand pump; I am now bfing after a rocky start. I found the hand pump better this time as I had very sore bleeding nipples and I felt I had more control of the hand pump than the electric. Without the pump I would not now be bfing. It helped increase my supply, protect my sore nipples when I was engorged and she couldn't latch on and convince me there was actually some milk there.

I never had any of those things and we are still going happily at 14mo. However, I think people have unrealistic expectations (mostly due to the fact that nobody tells them that 'normal' for breastfeeding can mean a whole load of things).

My DS put on weight really well and was really contented. However, he spent between 10 and 18 hours a day on the breast for at least the first three months. I had mumsnet to tell me this was ok, and worked through it (He still fed every hour or two until 7 months or more), but it was still really hard work, and it got me (really really) down at times.

I can only imagine how someone surrounded by people who don't understand BF - or only understand it from their own perspective, and we all know how different people's experiences can be. Lots of advice that people get given just make things worse, and if there was someone around telling me to only feed my DS 3 hourly (enough to wear me down) he would never have thrived. I have often thought that I have crap boobs compared to some people. Why doesn't the milk leak from my boobs? Why did my baby have to take 10hour cluster feeds? Why did I hardly ever feel full and never engorged? But now I realise they're not crap, they just are what they are. They did their job and DS is still thriving and still loving his milk.

Anyway, my point is that I had one "problem" that could really make people believe they have crap boobs. I got through it with support from DH and mumsnet. I bet there are a ton of other problems that with the proper advice and support, aren't necessarily actual problems. Its just that the support and advice isn't always there.

Grendle can I just say that I heart you that info is all really interesting especially the correlation between low iron and high birth weight which I had heard before but hadnt seen the study for.

IME in my own personal study group of 1 (ahem me) blood loss is in no way related to milk supply but there we are. Can you also post a link about the physiology of the chest and the leaking - thats really interesting too.

kat I had a couple of those things you mention but none of the others and I have bf 2 dcs. My first experience of bf some other people would say was awful - bleeding nips and screaming baby morning, noon and night but as Maria puts it I was pigheaded and nothing would have really stopped me barring the milk not coming in at all.

Please dont beat yourself up though - your body isnt crap and you'll try again next time with all of MN behind you and if you're in that tiny percentage who it would never have worked for you should just hold your head high and know that you tried everything

Chairmum: It's great that you managed to bf that long when your baby was eating so very often at the breast. To be honest though, I think it's unrealistic to expect (not that you say you expect this) of women to bf for 10-18 hours a day- and every 1-2 hours until 7 months!!- (was this through the night as well? and what do you think was the reason?) I have to say, if someone had told me that this was what bf is like, I would simply had said no, it's not for me. I think also that it's not necessarily 'normal' for babies to cluster feed that much. Some babies cluster feed & mums are ok with it. But other babies manage to get on a relatively normal (or normal-ish) routine & still continue bf. I think one of the problems with bf is presenting a picture that cluster feeding or feeding completely on demand is The Right Way. Again, I'm not saying for a moment this was what you said or what you believe... it just seems it's what worked / happened with you. But you do say 'women have unrealistic expectations' and I have to respond to that that it's also unrealistic to expect someone (especially someone with other kids as well) to bf for that many hours per day. It may have been possible in the past (maybe), in situations where an extended family was around & lots of support... but in today's world with nuclear, isolated families etc, it's simply not a feasible model, I think.