Is it possible that some of us just have crap boobs?

[ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight]

Sorry if that sounds weird but have just been mulling over my BF experience and comparing it to my SIL whose 9 day old DS is feeding like a dream. Hers just seem to work as they should, they got big in the last trimester, they are very engorged now, she drips milk when he cries, her nipples are bigger and darker etc etc. I know not every woman gets all these things and can still BF well but I had literally none of them and despite trying everything never had enough milk. I think my boobs are just a bit crap.

Thinking about the next time I do this, do electric pumps work much better than hand pumps? I think if I could express milk it would hae helped...

Starlight: you ask 'what should give, bf or today's world'. What are you asking, I'm not sure I understand the question? I was talking about very very intense cluster feeding (of the kind that Chairmum describes, or the kind it seems you went through). I was not talking about the bf experiences most women tend to have, which yes can be tiring, but not to this extent. And if you're asking me, personally, if I would accept this type of cluster feeding for months on end... no I couldn't & I wouldn't. I would add some formula; I would express & give the baby that; I might even consider stopping after a certain point. But that's just me & my limits / abilities. And when you say 'today's world' should change to accomodate bf, while on principle I agree with this, I'm not sure what kind of accomodation could work for a baby who's cluster feeding more than 10 hours a day for months on end (even up to 18, although that is surely an exaggeration). What kind of accomodation do you think would work with that, that would not leave the mother a walking corpse?

i don't think i had crap boobs as such but can categorically say the bfing is not my friend. i struggled to mix feed with dd1, struggled longer exclusively with dd2, and in the end gave up after about 5 months.

there was NEVER a click, it was a pita the whole time, i was on domperidone, i pumped, my latch was tip top, my attitude positive etc etc etc, it just never got good for me.

what was good with dd2 was that this time around i didn't beat myself up a quarter as much. look, i wear specs cos my eyes don't work so well, there's something about me and bfing that doesn't sit nicely, so what? i did my damndest, and this time i gave in peacefully. i hope, esme and the other pg ladies, that you totally nail it this time, but if you don't manage the great thing is that you know that exc bfing isn't the be all and end all of being a mother.

I agree completely with Aitch. I also never found BF easy although to be fair my experience has been better than Aitch describes hers (i.e. at some point bf became more of a pleasure). I'm still going on with mixed feeding at 8 months.

The thing is- and my point was before- that presenting a model of so much cluster feeding & demand feeding (to the extent described above) as the norm, means that many women will simply choose not to bf, or will quit very quickly. While if women are supported in various different ways of bf- ways that are compatible with their real, everyday, less than ideal sometimes, way of life- then we have more of a chance of having more women bf for longer.

Interesting. I've a slightly different perspective on cluster feeding from you, Maria, because to me it's been terribly important to know that it can be normal to cluster feed for hours and hours. If I hadn't known that, I'd never have been able to breastfeed because I'd have assumed that I wasn't making enough milk.

I think I'd like to see better info for pregnant women on how widely bf can vary for different women and babies. Like many on this thread, I never leak, and I'm the world's worst expresser.

All the signs point to my being a rubbish bf-er - but when dd2 had a bad tummy bug at 18 months, I exclusively bf her for a few days while she puked up everything else including water. Despite all the vomiting she never got dehydrated or even particularly droopy, so I must have been making a fair bit of milk.

So I worry a bit that so many things are viewed as problems and a sign that "something is wrong" when that's not necessarily true.

It's a tricky balance to maintain I think - you want to people have confidence in bf, but it would be wrong to keep encouraging people who, like aitch, are keen but whose norks are not co-operating.

lol, i found your kind emails very encouraging...
i was JUST thinking i hadn't seen you in a while, we are getting so much wear out of those lovely little shoes you got dd2. have you looked at my old blog recently, there's a pic of dd there, EATING. (well, chewing...)
how's norbert doing?

LOL, oh dear, was I encouraging? How awful.

Seriously though, it's something I worry about when people are being v. reassuring online, because sometimes being reassuring and saying "it's normal" isn't the right thing.

Am typing in a mad rush because Norbert (not his real name, in case anyone's wondering) is shouting. He's just gone 4 months and still feeding many hours in a day, and I can't type because he keeps trying to turn his head to look at the keys while still latched on [aaaaaaaaaaghhh] so have become a hermit.

Wouldn't have got v. far with any of my 3 if I thought babies should feed every 3 hours - as too many believe.

in a good way, i mean. honest.

ooooh, EATING.

Glad the shoes were useful - all these sheep do come in handy sometimes.

Must stop typing again now, baby is toooo distractible.

[hermit]

Starlight - I'm glad I made you feel better. A friend of mine was looking at photos of my DS last night and commented that she thought she had barely seen his face until about 5 months as he was permanently latched on It does pass though and for me, it was absolutely worth it.

Maria - I guess if the 18 hour days were every day I can understand it not being feasible, but that was the worst it could be. And yes DS was feeding at least intermittently during all that time - even when he was asleep. At night he woke somewhere between hourly and 3-4 hourly until about 6 months when we did some sleep training with him and got him to go 4 hours between night feeds. Oh and my definition of cluster feeding includes him stopping for a few minutes but rarely long enough to do more than pop to the loo or make a cup of tea.

Wellie - it was exactly the same for me - if it wasn't for mumsnet I would have thought that there was something wrong as I know nobody IRL who has had a feeder like my DS. DS recently had mastoiditis and was ill on and over for perhaps 6 weeks, with 2 weeks of constant feever. He ate (almost) nothing but BM for more than 2 weeks but at no point was there a worry about his weight. And 6 weeks later he's regained his normal centile line. I don't know how much more ill he would have been as I'm convinced he was BF for comfort most of the time, and the milk was just an added bonus.

IIRC it was worst at around 6 weeks, when I got very upset about it and went out and bought a pump and bottles. I was crap at expressing though, and DS wasn't keen on taking a bottle. When we did manage to get him to take it (I'd express in the morning when my supply was best and try to add it in the late afternoon/early evening when he cluster fed). He'd drink it down but it never helped (in fact I think it was making things worse after about a week so I stopped and it was - coincidentally I think - the time when the cluster feeds started dropping to 5, 4, 3 then 2 hours) That was never a solution for me, and as I have no other children and there were no worries about his health, I didn't consider formula as an option (by this time I had read about the dangers to my supply). If I had learnt to feed lying down at that point things would have been much easier too.

I did manage to have a life though. We got out in the morning when he fed less frequently (and perhaps that made the afternoon cluster feeding worse, but it was a compromise to stop me going crazy) We went for walks with him in the sling where he was more settled. We did stuff where it didn't make any difference that I had a baby attached to me (and next time round if I get another one the same I now know how to feed in a sling) We spent far too much time with DS latched on one side, and me using the laptop one handed on the other too

DH and I agreed that my job was looking after DS, and he had no expectations of me (although I normally managed to get the shopping done so he could cook something easy for us in the evening) which meant there was no pressure for me to do any housework. I don't know how many husbands would have been so supportive for so long, and perhaps that is part of

I'm not an expert but I think DS's feeding behaviour was in the realms of normal. Perhaps on the extreme side, but no indication (IMO and with his resulting weight gain) that there was something wrong that could be 'fixed'. Everyone has to make the feeding relationship between mother and baby work, and if this is a problem then there are alternatives - but the alternatives have associated risks to counter the advantages. To me, they were not worth it, but then I was happy(ish) sitting on the sofa watching crap telly for hours, or feeding all the way through coffee with other mums/at baby groups. I guess I just got strong arms and tough nipples

Well, yes, of course I agree that there's a wide variation of normal and wider education about that is useful. And Welliemum, I never talked about feeding every 3 hours being the right way- I know perfectly well that at the beginning of bf (and that was the case with me, too) lots of cluster feeding is normal & even good to establish a good milk supply. And then that can happen again at various times (e.g. during growth spurts). I'm just concerned that- as routines were once 'the norm' and many women thought bf every 4 hours was normal- that today demand feeding (often to an extreme) is seen as the norm & many women feel they fail if they can't manage to do this & they quit bf due to exhaustion. For those women- who for whatever reason cannot manage feeding on demand- a more routine-oriented approach (a flexible one, obviously, suited to bf) might be more appropriate. And in any case, some women can and do manage to feed a bit more on a routine (not necessarily always the same one) & that should be acceptable too. I'm just concerned about the fact that at different times different models of baby feeding are seen as 'the norm' and those kinds of beliefs can pressurize women in many different ways.

A routine can be great for babies and mums that can cope with them, but while I could perhaps have distracted my DS for some of the time (but beleive me, we tried and tried to give me a break, most of the time without success)

My point is just that for some babies (I strongly suspect mine) a routine for feeding would be disasterous for BF. I truly believe that trying to reduce my DSs BF times would have been detrimental to his health and to our relationship - I found his crying for me a hell of a lot more stressful than just feeding him.

I try not to give the impression that I was some sort of martyr to cluster feeding - there were times I cried for an hour because I just couldn't stand it any more (even though it was never more than a little sore for me). There were times I wanted to scream because I just couldn't get 20 minutes to soak in the bath at the times when DH could watch DS. I used to sit up watching DVDs with headphones with the volume up loud because I didn't dare fall asleep with DS feeding but was so exhausted I could barely stay awake (mostly in the first week or so before he sort of figured out day and night) But you cry and rant and before you know it, you realise that its actually not going on for as long as it was, that you could actually put your DC down for 5 minutes without screams!

Its the expectation of routine that is the problem here. While I would have gone crazy, I can see why the old approach of 6 weeks in bed after a birth would be helpful in establishing successful BF in this sort of situation as for many people the worst has calmed by then (It was about 10 weeks for us) There'd be no expectations of getting the housework done and suchlike then.

Oh and IMO, if the whole spectrum of feeding patters was seen as normal, there wouldn't be the expectations and the feelings of failure. But this is just one factor in the whole range of issues that contribute to dreadfully low BF rates.

Ha! Great to hear all the comments - I've had crap boob paranoia since day one (mainly thanks to lack of support here in Spain and my only point of reference being the Baby Wisperer book someone lent me - "if they cry before three hours between feeds it can't be hunger" etc. The book got burnt and I felt so happy). Pigheadedness and the the simple fact that a good Yorkshire lass like myself isn't going to pay for sommert you can get for nowt got me through.

I'm still chugging along with the bf and dd is 8 months - we both love it now but I'm still doubting my boobs' prowess.

Anyhoo my little theory is that I've never been overflowing with milk because I have high metabolism. In the same way I ate myself stupid in the last few months of pregnancy and the doctors still kept saying the baby wasn't gaining enough weight and I need to eat more. I ate/eat loads but reckon I burn it equally fast.

Well, no science bit there but just thought I'd share (and it rhymes!)