Is it possible for PND to be linked to breastfeeding in some women?

[ilovesummer]

I bf both dd and ds and am now expecting dc3 in April. I bf ds for 11 months and dd for 15 months with ds I had quite bad pnd and with dd had mild pnd, each time the pnd improved though the year but seemed to totally go in the month following the dc stopping bf. My question is, was this a coincidence or can there be a link between pnd and bf? Btw I really enjoy bf, but obviously hate the pnd. I am wondering what will happen this time around?

leonie, what you linked to/posted makes a lot of sense.

I think when bf-ing works well, it does have a protective effective. The oxytoxins released could have a calming effect.

I co-slept with my dcs because they were such poor sleepers, sometimes waking once an hour. But I was not particularly tired. I was wading in the shallows I guess.

Hmm...... excuse me while I mull on this one a bit: I think that bf protects against pnd in a basic physiological sense (I mean hormonally), but probably fosters depression in some people in other ways, because as modern women we're unable to mother our babies as nature intended. I think truly happy and successful bf requires a mum and a baby to function as a strongly interdependent single unit, but society makes this intense interdependency both difficult and unpleasant for us. Mothers are too isolated - mostly caring for their children alone behind closed doors. This can make the psychological experience of normal bf very difficult - the sense of being completely responsible for a baby is overwhelming sometimes. I honestly don't think we would get this feeling so much if we weren't caring for our children alone in the way we do.... if someone was caring more for us.

I also think we're primed socially to feel as though being close to our babies in the way bf requires is somehow 'wrong'. We are geared towards early separation of mums and babies - keeping them at an arms length all the time - pushing them in prams instead of carrying them in our arms, putting them to sleep in cots instead of close to us at night.... made to feel that they should be 'independent' as early as possible and that we should 'get our lives back'.....

no wonder bf is hard for us emotionally.

[wanders off scratching backside and looking pensive]

Sorry - want to add (on a personal note), that although I have had mild depression on and off in adult life (haven't had any treatment since was in my 20's) I haven't had PND after any of my three children. I bf but did co-sleep a lot though, so wasn't too sleep deprived. I also had my (much loved) mother and other family around to help me and make me feel secure. I think that makes a huge difference emotionally.

I agree chillybangbang.

could be chillybang....like your 'behind closed doors' theory

agree, chilly

I think the big factor in post natal depression is that we try to be all things to all people. Ie. We want to be the alpha mum who breastfeeds and gives our children the best start in life, we want a good relationship with our partners and a high flying career.

We also grow up without much contact with babies and every Tom, Dick and Heneritta is keen to give advice. (Whether they have had children or not.) Many women who are fiercely competitive in the workplace carry this competitiveness over into parenting with dire results.

Unlike the past there is less family support and people are more isolated in big cities.

Excellent post chilly.

I had pnd with dd (bf for 11 months) and no pnd with ds (bf for 17 days )

I didn't want to stop bf ds, and I felt down, but it didn't progress to pnd

(this is obviously not scientific proof of anything)

I also think that if bf is a struggle then it really affects your mood - I had a horrible time with dd, but stuck with it, had months of being in pain, pushing for the right support. And also constant paranoia re her weight gain and whether I had enough milk.

agree doggysayswoof

my friends have even laughed at me - in a kindly way but sort of ' oh M you REALLY struggle with the breastfeeding dont you?' and i do

i dont enjoy it but do it because i know it is best

chillyBB I think thats sounds right. Its being on your own that does it, unlike in many other cultures where all the other women /family members in the community do everything else and mothers just look after babies, or in cultures where women all stick together and bring up children together.

in uk women don't even get to stay in hospital for any length of time, just resting and getting used to their babies and being shown what to do etc.

it may also be in some cases that a bf mother is more concientious or more prone to worry which is why they would not be happy to use formula. not explaining very well, basically i mean the type of woman who chooses to bf for long time, might be more perfectionist or harder on herself and therefore more prone to depression.

i have pnd and bf and have a poor sleeper, but i think over riding factor is being on my own as dh works nights.

poor you leonie btw

I really don't know about the connection between bf and pnd but I got rather grumpy when I was pregnant with DD. It developed into PND and I put it mainly down to being a new mum and the extreme lack of sleep. However, I did feel almost instantly better after my dd weaned herself off bf at 18mo. I loved bf and it was relatively easy for us establish, I was sad when she stopped.

I am now pregnant again and I can feel the anger building up inside me again. I've spoken to my midwife and we have discussed anti-natal depression.

I truely believe it has something to do with the hormones I produce when pregnant and bf.

Reallytired - I know where you are coming from when you talk about mums trying to do everything right, but it makes me a bit sad to see breastfeeding bracketed with other 'alphamum' activities like having a high-flying career. Breastfeeding is really nothing more than a normal biological function really.... it's not an 'ideal'. The fact that a normal biological function is emotionally and physically troubling for many of us is something that should make us stop and think about the experience of mothering in this society.

kalo i think you might be right

i agree chilllybb. it shouldn't be such an alpha mother thing to do, but this society doesn't really place much value on bringing up babies.

re; the 13 year old dad, all the media coverage is about how this 13 yr old should face up to his responsibilities, and the consequences of having sex and so shocking that they are having sex etc.

Surely society is not going to allow these two school kids to look after this baby. I know social services will be very much involved and the families are looking after them , but the way its presented in the media its as if we should want to 'punish these kids by making them look after the baby.

bringing up a baby is a really difficult job for a middle class 30 something whose going to do everything with the benefit of being well read on attatchment parenting ffs. And by that i don't mean that posh/rich people are better at it. I mean that chillybb is right and the natural job of mothering as become something elitist like everything else in this devisice class ridden society.

sorry for ramble

I agreewith loneliness andlack of tat circle

I certainly dont think bf;maybe unrealistic expexctatiosn or guilt placed on peopleb by otherrs (HV / MIL / magazines / dr hj etc etc etc) but that's not bf itss ociety today sadly

I think all the new mum things make people vulnerable and it can be any of them: tiredness, money worries, guilt at being asahm or a wohm, relationship changes, eneral lack of cill out time, hormonal shifts, body image........ so very many things

i love this thread

honestly i do

i should not feel like this

i am a sixth time mum - but with NO family support .

`i wonder why my friends still love me after i have babies

i am a shite friend to them - just keep saying 'when i stop feeding i will be better'

PND, like all forms of depression have causal links with expectations and perception of reality and how far removed these are from 'actual' reality.

For some, the bfing 'lifestyle' is very far removed from how them imagined it would be and therefore can possibly trigger depression. However, this is not bfing itself that causes PND, but the society that we live it that enables us to have completely unrealistic expectations of normal newborn behaviour.

It is also possible that for mothers who expect to bf and see themselves as bf but then hit difficulties that mean they cannot, are also vulnerable to depression caused by the distance between their expectations and reality.

Personally I had awful PND with DS1 (BFed for 8 weeks) and like you OP my PND went after I stopped. However a lot of the PND was tied to getting virtually no sleep, so I suspect it was more that than the BF.

When i had PND I spent oo much time trying to figure out why, what had I done or not done to protect myself from it - I was very run down physically and the doc said its like the chicken and the egg scenario.

I have had mild bouts of depression since but I have other 'mitigating factors' (B12) however i just concetrate on doing things I knnow help me. I never took medication and used self help and counselling. I wished I'd done this when I had PND more so than trying to estabish cause and effect. There is still much science has to learn etc do what you feel you need to do to get better, if you still suffering that is.

HTH

lighter nights soon!!!!

I reckon the sleep issue is important for a lot of depressed mums. I don't think the 'design' of breastfeeding factors in the modern tendency towards putting babies in cots and in their own bedrooms, so that a lot of mums who are bf are more exhausted than nature intended them to be. I've co-slept on and off with all of mine and I think it can make a huge difference to levels of tiredness after the birth. I also suspect that many mums' experience of co-sleeping is compromised by guilt and fear, having been given incomplete and biased information about it by health visitors and midwives.

Hiya

TBH I partially BF my oldest and had quite bad PND the guilt that I didn't listen to my instincts and let others tell me I couldn't produce enough milk was unreal.

My second I said F the lot of you and have done the entire thing my way and I'm fine.

I get a bit hormonal from time to time and a bit weepy if Im having a shite day but overall how I feel is amazingly different.

HOWEVER the link I did find personally ...

when I had DD I took the pill as contraception
and 6 weeks later diagonased with PND after I tried to OD.

life went on and on and off I've used the pill.
After I had a miscarriage I decided to rid my body of all synthetic hormones for the time being and let it do it's job.

Anyway I fell pregnant and sailed through it had Daniel and 5 weeks later I started the pill again and within 2 weeks I was ready to leave home noone was helping me everything was shit I never stopped crying or yelling at people eventually hubby & I had a row I told him I didn't know what was going on either but I felt very engulfed.

We made a list of what was getting to me the most and a resoloution whilst doing this we came to another conclusion that it had only been since I started taking the pill I felt like that.
SO I safely ceased as soon as I could and had a merena fitted touch wood I feel great.

So maybe just look at other factors such as added hormones!

To be honest while I'm an avid BF supporter if you truly feel that is a factor for you could you try half feeding and see how you feel and then if you feel better
maybe just one feed a day or dare I say don't breast feed.

Really interesting to hear all these experiences. I feel quite positive about this time around as I am feeling quite good on this pregnancy. I have decided to bf for as long as I can, hopefully that will be a year+ but if it is only 3 months I would rather do that than none. The idea of mixed feeding doesn't really appeal, but we'll see!

What is strange to me is that with both dd and ds by the time they stopped bf I was only feeding them 1st thing in the morning and last thing in the evening. So it wasn't as if my body was having to work that hard. Both dc were also sleeping through, but even so when they stooped bf I felt so much better. I just don't get it.... maybe it is hormonal?? Or maybe this time round I will escape the pnd.