if u were a new mum meeting a b/f mum for a group chat, would u want me to tell you all the details, even the not so nice stuff?

[misdee]

am going to do a informal talk/answer session for new mums/mums to be tomorrow night at bfeeding clinic.

have been asked to answer things like good clothing choices for breastfeeding, what its like in the early days etc etc.

am wondering how to answer in the ineveitable 'does it hurt' question. should i go for the standard 'not if the latch is corrent' or the more honest 'yes it can be sore as you have a baby 'vascumming' at your nipples which are a sensitive area to start with, and the letdown feeling can feel very painful at first, and when your milk comes in you feel like you have been hit in the chest/or like your boobs are like stone bricks on the front of your chest'

so which would u prefer to be told?

Be honest, and tell them it's worth it! Like any other skill worth having, it takes time and practice to learn.

I'm glad you're allowed free rein. I went to a couple of sessions at a local bf cafe when ds was 10-11 weeks. I went because although he was putting on weight nicely and getting enough milk, and although I wasn't in pain at all, there were times when he'd just have a complete paddy at the boob, and I wanted to find out what was 'wrong'. (We never did find out, but I suspect it just wasn't coming fast enough for him!) Anyway, there were mostly mums with younger babies than mine there. I was speaking to one of the HVs who ran it afterwards, and she was talking about getting one of us more 'experienced' mums (at 11 weeks!!) to give an informal talk to the newest mums. I volunteered, and she pretty much said 'not you, dear - you've been having problems and we don't want to scare them off.' I was really quite hurt, and also aghast that they're trying to censor the experience like that. It's the same in the NHS literature I was given - bf is free, natural and easy, and doesn't hurt if you're doing it right. It's as if you're not allowed to talk adult-to-adult and be honest about possible difficulties, for fear of putting people off.

I would agree with mawbroon - breastfeeding experiences are on a spectrum, and I speak to many women every year (I am a breastfeeding counsellor) for whom breastfeeding is pain-free and always has been. They may have other issues, but pain is not one of them.

That's not the same as saying pain is very rare, because it isn't; but it is not inevitable. In most cases, pain can be alleviated or avoided. The majority of women I see who are in pain who have been told 'the latch is fine - persevere' are, frankly, being given poor postnatal care, because I can almost always see that something can be changed in the way the baby comes to the breast, and most of the women I see can feed pain free (I don't touch them or their babies - just make suggestions on how to do it differently).

Antenatally, women need to know there can be problems, of course they do - but there is no need to paint a black picture, mentioning 'all the possible problems'...there just isn't time, no individual woman will experience 'all the possible problems'....

I think you should prepare new mums for the reality. The books all said 'it may hurt a little if the latch on isn't correct.' I then thought I wasn't doing it properly as it hurt LIKE HELL for at least two months.

I tell my new mum friends to try to keep at it for six weeks and then make up your mind if you want to carry on. Lots of them have told me that was the best advice they had as the benefits (convenience/bonding/less pain etc) really kick around then.

I love the driving analogy - i have discovered mn and i haven't fed yet but i have read lots of these threads and lots of mn-ers in reaction to NOT being told the downsides themselves tend to concentrate on the downsides and then not mention that it DOES get easier (it does doesn't it???? please tell me it does?)

I'm hoping it is like learning to drive. Takes a while to get and can be frustrating at first and reduce you to tears and you think you're the only person in the world who will never get it but then one day you find yourself driving around on your own without thinking about it consciously at all.

[hopeful emoticon]

fluffles, the truth is for me it hurt far more than i could ever imagine, this happened every time a feed was required, for hrs at a time when i was exhausted anyway. That's why so many of us talk about the downside - it's unbelievably hard but then yes, generally (with help, after hardening up etc) it does get easier in most cases. It would have helped me inordinately to have known the truth from the off rather than the "if it hurts you're doing it wrong" message i got from my nct classes.

NCT classes do not say 'if it hurts you're doing it wrong' - they really do not! The counsellor may say 'if it hurts, see this as a sign to get someone to help with attachment and positioning' and that is a very sensible suggestion. What do people want us to say? 'If it hurts just put up with it because it's normal'???

I am tired of seeing this 'hurts = something you're doing wrong' expressed as something that is said at NCT classes - it sounds blaming and dismissive, and we don't say it.

Sorry if I am sounding a bit cross about this. If people take away this 'you're doing it wrong' message from classes then it has not come from the counsellor's words.

Sorry just read the OP.

I wouldnt like to know.

But thats just me.

As a first time mum to be I was 'spooked'by a second timer talking about tandem feeding a toddler. i was horrified. I couldnt imagine feeding a toddler never mind in tandem.

Many years later ( a seasoned BFer) .......I thought differently.

I think the risk is that if everyone tells you it doesn't hurt/it's wonderful/it's easy then it's inevitable that you're going to think you're doing something wrong as soon as the going gets tough. Which undermines confidence and is totally counterproductive to what you are trying to achieve!

You're probably best to be frank, but also emphasise that discomfort is transient and can be helped by stamping on the floor, counting to 8 and shouting "Fuck!" repeatedly. Or something.

I was lucky because my mum had gone into great detail about how it's "excruciating", so I was well warned. But then, bless her, she'd also warned me that during childbirth I would think I was dying, and not to worry because I wouldn't be, not really

Yes - be as honest as you can BUT emphasise that things should quickly improve.

I would recommend that they get the latch checked if they are experiencing pain, but that sometimes pain is normal even with a perfect latch.

Some of the worst bits (lie the toe curling pain, the cluster feeding and general frequency of feeding in the early days) seem horrific at the time but are that much easier to cope with if you know that it's normal and won't last forever

tiktok (here we go again), yes, nct classes have said this, mine did, okay?! (admittedly 7 yrs ago, hopefully they have better training now.) whether i was unlucky and it was a one off, who knows.
Anyway, judging from our abysmal bfing rates in this country, clearly far too many women are still hearing messages like this, from whatever source. I think a little more honesty would go a long way and it's great that people are pushing for this on here.

agree with iwish - toecurling pain but quickly gets better, good message to spread.

Honesty!
I also wish someone had told dh to feed me and bring cups of tea very frequently during the first two weeks! And that you really do need to feed all the time at first and not to worry about anything else! I tried to have 'a routine' (grrr mother and MIL) and it was pretty pointless really.

thank you for your input.

yes the toe curling pain is one i'm familiar with, i will make sure i mention that this is my own experience and some feed totally pain free, and others get some discomfort. the worst for me personally is the let-down on the other breast as i'm feeding. that always makes me grit my teeth, but for others its a slight tingle.

misdee - I think you need to point out that there are loads of things that can happen, but that even if people get problems, that they mostly only get one or two.

For me it was the cluster feeding. No pain other than some soreness when DS got lazy after god knows how many hours. No engorgment, almost never leaked, no thrush, no mastitis... nothing else bad (lucky, I know). The cluster feeding felt bad enough at the time though.

(Now we're onto the teeth scraping but I know that not that many people get to 11mo, and plenty stop before the teeth start to arrive!)

well hopefully i did ok

i answered questions honestly. one thing that came up was expressing, which i am not good at, but did say my sister was a pro at it. and she could also express better than me.

also sophie decided to cluster feed for the whole two hours, i di say to them at the start that she may do that and it was perfectly normal.

the |HV team were very good, and itr was an informative evening.

might volenteer for their next group of mums-to-be

Well done Misdee . cluster feeding demo lol!

Just to back up MissChief, my NCT bfc said "if it hurts you are doing it wrong", and was no help whatsoever. I did complain about her to NCT, but she is still around...

I DO think most bfc are good, but some aren't, and some are zealots who undermine women rather than support them. Hwr, we do need more good ones to help improve our bf rates, and people like you Tiktok are invaluable on here. I wish I had known about Mn when I started bf....

Tiktok, the lady who ran our NCT classes told us that breastfeeding doesn't hurt, and then she added exactly the words you say NCT does not use: 'if it hurts you're doing it wrong'. No mention of needing help of any kind if it was painful, just those words.

You may not say that; I am even prepared to accept that most do not say that. But please, please don't suggest that we are making things up and that no NCT representative would ever say those things, because some of them do. Like the previous poster this was a few years years ago, and maybe things have changed since then - I really do hope so.

GreenEggs - the bfc may still be around as NCT would prob not kick someone out for saying that. If you complained, then the usual thing would be for her tutor or suprviser or equivalent to raise the issue with her and talk about ways to improve her practice, and I really hope this happened in this instance.

I don't think people are inventing the words, honestly! I accept - because you are telling me here - that on a few occasions the words have been used by a tiny handful (maybe one or two only!) of counsellors, some time ago. All I can say is that it is not general, it is not accepted as good practice, and anyone who encounters this sort of blaming attitude these days (ie 'you are doing it wrong') should complain. Their complaint will be taken seriously.

Shitehawk, you use the present tense ('some of them do') and then go on (like MissChief) to point out that this happened some time ago. I am pretty confident mothers do not need to think this would happen now.

FWIW I had a strange experience re breastfeeding pain yesterday.

I BF my DD1 with no real problems apart from a dose of thrush some time in so know what a good latch looks/sounds/feels like. This time round, DD2 has had quite bad jaundice which made her lethargic for a day or so and so she latched on to me really badly for a few days and I ended up with terribly bruised/cracked/bleeding nipples. This has now passed as she's feeling better and I'm also making sure she latches well - but in the meantime I developed deep breast pain and itchiness so went to the GP for treatment for suspected thrush.

Apparently it's not thrush because "breastfeeding just hurts, you know"

I stood my ground, because I knew emphatically that she was talking rubbish, but it wasn't a very pleasant experience as she was adamant and quite aggressive. Apparently "the notion of breast thrush has only been around for a couple of years" which again is nonsense, because I had it with DD1 and she's nearly four!

misdee, glad it went well and imho, great too that you felt you could/should be honest!
Tiktok, good of you to accept that we're not inventing our words . Seriously, I'm sure overall the NCT tries to do a good job but doesn't mean it shouldn't be subject to constructive criticism when it's due the same as any other organisation/charity etc.

Based on speaking recently to a couple of new mums at playgroup and on speaking to a couple of friends who have recently had babies, the NCT still has the reputation for being rather evangelical at times rather than practically helpful with some. Regardless of whether that is justified now (or ever was), something's going wrong if any new mums have this view. This is not a personal attack on you, Tiktok, but a heartfelt plea for the NCT overall to look to broaden its appeal, ensure quality control of its counsellors. I felt so let down a few yrs ago when i struggled so hard to bf my newborn while being v ill myself. i feel i was let down by the local NCT counsellor and had to go private to get the support my ds needed from a bf specialist. The bf counsellor who came to our nct classes was incredibly evangelical about bfing, and unrealistic - this was the view of the WHOLE group of 10 of us, not just me! It's this experience which keeps me banging on about this yrs on, i don't want other women to go through the same awful struggle i did and it certainly gladdens me to hear that the message "if it hurts, you're doing it wrong" is no longer being spread.

I think it's time for gov/the NHS/nct etc to get serious about this - be realistic, involve all types of mothers from a range of backgrounds to set up a coherent infrastructure of support. It's great that misdee/tiktok and co come on here and engage but there is so much more to be done - listneing to woman's hr this morning re child obesity and links to failure to bf, the fact that we have the worst bfing rates in europe etc is an awful reminder of how pressing this problem is.

MissChief, I think NCT is exemplary in the way its specialist workers i) train to a high standard - all SWs now have to complete a University level diploma, externally validated ii) have to undergo support and supervision in order to remain registered iii)have to do in-service training every year to remain registered iv) have to demonstrate they are in touch with their peers so they are not always working alone.

In addition there is a formal complaints procedure.

No other volunteer group does this quality control to this high level, IMO.

Not all of this has always been in place and I am sure it does not work 100 per cent perfectly everywhere even now. But when you remember NCT bfcs train voluntarily (and it takes about 3 years to train) and work (mostly) voluntarily, the quality control you ask for is pretty good.

I think the risk that some bfcs are seen as 'evangelical' rather than 'helpful' is real - but the quality control elements of the way we are organised should minimise that. I'd add that for every 'evangelical' bfc you come across, there are likely to be a far greater number of quieter 'helpful' bfcs whose voices are quieter as they simply get on with the job of being helpful With 350 NCT bfcs, there are bound to be differences in personality and ways of working, but if any of this gets in the way of being helpful, then people should complain.

You are not aware of what we already do to engage with women across all backgrounds. Many NCT bfcs are involved with supporting peer support programmes and breastfeeding groups; we are increasing our training of bfcs and tutors so they can run peer supporter courses; our breastfeeding line answers every call or message made to it now (apart from very rare tech glitches or when women leave the wrong no. which means we cannot call back ).

I can assure we are working very hard, with volunteer labour, on the coherent infrastructure of support you rightly say is needed. The other volunteer groups also do a great job.

Look how badly women are supported and how ill-informed they are by the people whose job it is to do it - the stories are posted here every day. Unnecessary supplementing, women being told to limit feeds, tongue ties being missed, poor interpretation of weight charts....and so on and on and on.

I think the very occasional evangelical breastfeeding counsellor for the voluntary sector needs to be challenged, of course I do, but when it comes to taking responsibility for the UK's low bf rates, I really think the issue is massively wider than that!

God, I sound like a defensive loon, re-reading my post For the record, I know NCT cannot always get it right, but we do most of the time, we try hard, we have systems in place, and low bf rates have really nothing to do with us!

@ tiktok