DD gets angry/agitated when breast feeding :(

[tenacityflux]

My DD is 6 week and I have been trying to BF all along but have also been using formular to top up as my milk supply was low due to non-baby related stress the week she was born; so she has been having a few oz top up feed but only after a breast feed. I want to try and get her back to all BF but this is hard - she feeds for a long time, hard at night, I keep trying to check my latching position and consulting the books and looking at pictures, the advisors say she is latching on finel but sometimes, just now for example, I go to feed her and she latches but comes right off again, begins to claw and bang at my breast and then gets more and more agitated, starts screaming and forcing her self off, I try and calm her with winding/cuddling/walking about and try again but she soon get's hysterical and red faced; DH gets upset and either insists we bottle feed her as she must be hungry, or he takes her and she passes out on him; we're about to give her a bath and I was trying to feed her before hand as I normally do in the evening; - do other mums find their babies react like this to BF and what can I try to keep her calm - her nails are scratching on me so I get a rash/bleed and they've been trimmed!This also makes me really upset as I want to get back to BF but feel under preassure to stop all together as she gets so angry with it, but not all the time!

DS has always done this at times, and he's exclusively breast fed. Sometimes he gets frustrated when the milk doesn't flow straight away, and the bashing/clawing is to encourage a letdown.

He always fed for long periods of time (for the first ~ 3 months, then he started to get quicker) and would cluster feed for hours. He also fed every hour or so to start with, and every 2-3 hours for months (although he was occasionally distractable and I/DH could take him out for 3-4 hours) This is perfectly normal!

Our latch was always fine, it was just a bit of work to get the milk out.

I'm not an expert but I would suggest:

• some skin to skin time where you're both nice and relaxed (preferably a good couple of days spent mostly in bed with plenty of heating, entertainment and a stack of food/drink to keep you going)

• try offering the breast more often - If your DD has got really hungry she's bound to be more frustrated when she doesn't get the milk straight away

• try not giving the bottles at all (or cut down one feed at a time) as your DD will be used to the bottle where the milk flows straight away. they like that so will start to want the easier route.

I'm afraid I just persevered when DS got grumpy. I'd get somewhere comfortable so I didn't have to hold him, and let him roll away/towards my breast when he wanted to. He'd complain/wriggle for a while but he always had a feed in the end.

So long as your DD is alert at times during the day, and has plenty of wet and dirty nappies, and is gaining weight well so far, you should be able to try to ditch the bottles without worrying too much.

Hope this helps, and hopefully someone else will be along soon with more advice!

I just wonder if this is like Nipple Confusion.. I posted this message on another thread earlier;

I experienced the same thing when my 1st dd was around 11 weeks. This was due to me expressing and bottle feeding ? following the advise of an ill informed HV who I stupidly trusted. My dd would not allow me to even hold her in the cradle position without trying to feed her. She would scream so hard that she would loose her breath . I felt totally rejected. I felt that the one thing i loved more than anything in the whole world hated me . Anyway, What i did was ditched the bottles. i would feed her using a large feeding syringe (free from chemist) and also the Medela Softcup Advanced Feeder. This meant that her sucking needs were not satisfied and usually when she was really tired or actually sleeping i could get her to latch onto me using a nipple shield (same texture as artificial teats).

Then i started a mission to get dd to associate my breasts with a "Happy Feeling". The way i done this was by laying dd on the floor and blowing raspberries on her tummy until she laughed, then i gently and quickly touched her face with my bare breast. We done this nearly every waken hour throughout the day for about 10 days then she started to show loving signs of the breast again. She would happily cuddle into my breast and would let me hold her happily whilst i was clothed or not. Then suddenly whilst playing "Happy Breast Time!" she quickly rooted and latched on - i was on all fours on top of her but managed to stay there until she was finished! I honestly felt like opening the house windows and screaming to let the world know how excited i was.. this was around 2 weeks after we started it. Then we spent about a further week around the house.. sleeping together naked, bathing together and playing together naked! I started taking Fenugreek to help boost my supply as it had dipped quite dramatically. Was also eating porridge to help increase supply too. just wish i knew about the motherlove tinctures then!

Before long we were back in full swing and the bottles were long in the bin.. we managed to continue BFing until she was just over 2 and she self weaned as i got pregnant again.

This also might help you work out what is causing it fussing whilst nursing

Great suggestions from Chairmum

Tenacityflux....I do think from what you say it is the bottles that are at the root of this, sorry. You clearly had good reasons for introducing formula but it is a devil to get rid of for many mothers and it certainly does impact on supply. A few oz top up after most breastfeeds over 6 weeks is easily enough to impact majorly on supply, and I think this is more likely than any latching issue to be making the difference...so it's really a question of reducing the bottles and increasing the breast, and making the breast a lovely and rewarding place to be. This is not something that happens without hard work and patience, either....but you can get there.

ds does this sometimes and is 7 months. it seems to be mostly in the evenings. i think he is wanting a faster let down.

if you think it is your supply i would try and lie down in bed with loads of water to drink and have skin to skin and feed loads. go in the bath with your dd and feed there too. ds would have fed there when he was small and fussing as this seemed to calm him down/distract him. also good excuse to eat oatmeal cookies...wondered why i looked like jordan last week after eating a full pack of chocolate oatmeal cookies and then read on here that oatmeal will increase your supply!! ;) hth

I tried feeding her at 10.30, BF for 1 1/2 hour then she went to sleep at 12 but awake again at 1.00, I took her into her room where I'd borrowed a reclining chair ti feed her in, wraped up in a duvet, water to hand etc, and she fed until 4.00 without stopping, I am really exhausted and she keeps fussing/crying at my breast, some moments quiet, I find the chair uncomfortable and can't even doze, try putting her in her crib at 4.30 as I am so achy I just want to lie down, she cried and wouldn't go down, still trying to feed her, me now crying from tiredness; in the end DH gives her 2 oz feed and puts us in the bed, she sleeps at once and then I lie there from six still 11, she feeding and get some sleep - but then she gets upset again more and more and won't stops feeding but isn't happy, comes on and off all the time, getting angry; I'm so tired I am crying, in the end give her 2 oz and she goes to sleep peacefully in her sling and I nap from 1.30 to 4. I shall try and feed her again now, but don't think I can do another night like last night, breasts hurt and a feel this huge sense of guilt and failure that I can't seem to satisfy. She only poo's every 3 days or so, HV says this is fine as does Doctor but now I read threads where people say this isn't, they say she is holding onto the nutriants - was meant to have her weighed today but slept through my appoinment time and no answer when I ring and can't find her red book to find the alternate numbers for the HV. I am supposed to go to a massage class and group tomorrow am but if I am still this tired don't think I can make it and don't think I can take the site of all the other mums BF and getting sleep and the guilt.Still don't want tog give up but can't go on with four hour feeds.

tenacityflux this sounds so normal. ds was like this for ages-i thought i'd never get anything done again or a moments peace to myself!! when ds came home he slept the first night but then the next night everytime i put him down in his moses basket he would waken, cry and want fed again, when really i think he just wanted something to suck for comfort. on the 4th night i was exhausted and kept him in bed beside me once he had fallen asleep and he's been there ever since! is there any way you can do this? also don't worry about baby classes or the hv they all understand! oh and i think they go through growth spurts-ds had one a couple of weeks ago and i was ready to give up as he was up all night feeding and crying like you describe during the day but by the time i was deciding to give up he had settled again. sorry it's so much and so muddled but hope it helps.

and try lanolish cream if you're sore, you can get it from the doctors apparently. i got mine from boots.

tenacity -can you feed lying down? If you can get the hang of that, you can doze while your baby feeds.
info here
more here
and another

I remember sitting up half the night for the first few weeks, wondering how I could stay up any longer. I used to prop myself up in bed so I could sleep sitting up and used to wake up to find DS had fallen into the crook of my elbow. It really scared me so I wish I had learned to feed lying down earlier.

Have you been to a local BF group?
I made friends with a woman with an 8 week premmie - I met her just before her due date!. She was struggling with feeds like this and she said it really helped to have me around because I understood what the constant feeding was like and because I didn't know her before the baby, I didn't judge her based on anything she was like in normal times. If you can find someone IRL who understands, and who might sit with you for an hour or two while you feed it can really take the pressure off. My SIL used to come round in the mornings after the school run to give my DS a cuddle, make me a cup of tea and just chat to me. It made me feel more human.

This is normal, and it is hard, but it sounds like the constant feeding is actually getting somewhere, and the more she feeds, the better your supply gets. If you're tired or upset, just have a rant on here and we'll be here to support you.

am off to bed now with ds, hope you have a better night tonight. will check again in the morning. night

Hello,

DD was at this stage this time last year. It will get better! I found the following helped:

Offering boob as much as possible especially from 3 - 9 in evening.

Partener supporting - he can help without feeding by doing as much other stuff as possible. My dh used to wash up with DD in sling while a grabbed a bath.

Put long socks over her hands that can;t fall off so when she's patting ans scratching.

BELIEVE helath people when they say your dd is doing well and that are doing the right things.

Learn to breast feed and sleep. I found that propped up on sofa/in bed (but followng all the guidelines) sitting up with dd at breast with pillow under my head to snooze was good. We still 'boob snooze' aged 15 months - best thing I ever tried!

Repeat over and over 'this will get easier, this will get easier'. It is so worth the hard time you are going through and one day you'll be looking back at this instead of being in it. (and....once you get established again.....you give some formular for the sake of your own health and sanity your still a FABULOUS mum)

Los of love and luck

Great advice from mumblecrumble. try to avoid as much topping up as poss as milk comes out of bottles a lot easier than from the breast and so he might be getting lazy. Evenings are always the worst as they 'cluster feed' ie snack on and off all the time!! It's really important for your milk supply if you want to breastfeed completely to go with this and get someone else to make the dinner, or phone pizza delivery!! The bad evenings go completely by about 3 mths, but get gradually easier.

It probably also a growth spurt, they happen a 3weeks, 6 weeks and 3 mths. They last for a few days as long as you feed on demand and let your milk supply catch up with the baby's needs

typing really slowly while we feed - last evening i had a good half hour when we didn't feed and danced to music, which i really miss with all the feeding, then we had our bath and dd wouldn't feed and i got upset, really badly, and dh suggested i go and stay with my mum while he takes her and time off work, this idea makes me really cry like i'm so useless. we give her 2 oz and try and settle her, in the end eat dinner with her in the sling until she's asleep and we can put her in her crib. i am so tired suggest we have a nap together as i am longing for a hug, so we do, planning to sleep till 10 but she wakes up when i lie down so i put her in our bed and feed her lying down and we all sleep through the alarm until midnight when i get up and feed for an hour in the nursery while dh washes up and makes his lunch.DD goes to sleep in crib at 1.20 but is awake at 3.30 so i take her next door and feed until after 5.00 when i try and take her off but she screams, walk around downstairs until she is calmer and feed her again but she is fussing and wakes up dh with screaming;i get into our bed but she won't feed lying down or sitting up, dh leaves me toast and a bottle and in the end i givr her 2 oz to try and get her to sleep, which she does for about half an hour - then she grumbles while i shower and dress and am feeding, i have a baby group at 10.30 and am trying to feed her enough to get out of the door, she's asleep on my boob, alright for some!would like to cosleep but dh too heavy a sleeper too risky, can sleep in spare bed downstairs but will i ever get back in my bedand her in crib?

Tenacity, you poor thing. I remember the early days (which weren't that long ago, DS is only 9 weeks) were just like this.

It doesn't actually sound like giving a bottle is giving you much more respite, if you last post is anything to go by. What I did (and this is probably not at all recommended, but it was the only way to survive for us) was allow DS to feed/comfort suck for up to an hour, doing my utmost to make absolutely sure he was feeding (he used to actually move his mouth exactly as if he was feeding, but wasn't swallowing. This was obviously for comfort, which is fine if you are prepared and aware it's happening, but it meant he wanted to feed again 10 minute later). This would often mean taking him on and off to keep him going. Usually he had taken a full feed within 30-40 mins and would then spend another 20 mins 'comfort sucking', which was fine in my book as it was still within my self imposed 'hour'.
DP would then take him and do his utmost to settle him (sling, rocking, finger in the mouth, whatever). If he wouldn't settle he would bring him back no sooner than 30 mins later, meaning I at least had a 30 minute nap (ear plugs/ipod helped if he was crying), and we would repeat the cycle. It never took more than 2 or 3 of these cycles before DS would fall asleep for an hour, sometimes 2 or 3.

I know it's phenomenally crap, but if bottles are only making things worse (and it sounds horribly as if they are, it's a huge shame you weren't correctly advised on using them for the shortest time possible and pumping to keep your supply up etc), then it sounds like you haven't got anything to lose by ditching them for 48 hours or something (set a time limit so you know you're only facing a maximum amount of crapness if you still struggle).

Best of luck, and whatever plan you choose (I'm in no way suggesting mine is the best, someone like tiktok will have a much better one), try to stick with it for a little while and see how you go.

but me and dp have been in seperate beds for nearly 7 months! as he is a heavy sleeper and i found i was more tired as i was staying awake to make sure he didn't roll on ds either. but all i cared about was that we all got sleep-this is only short term and soon ds will be in his own room but for now this suits us. so if this works for you would it be so bad in the short term or at least until you get feeding again without bottles and she settles easier for feeds? tiktok is very good for bf advice. maybe she will give you some advice. xx

Tenacity- it actually seems to me like things are getting better. It might not feel like it now but it should continue to get better.

I didn't sleep more than a couple of hours at a time (if I was lucky) for the early weeks. I remember feeling like I was going to crack, and buying a pump and bottles just to try to get DS to stop this cluster feeding. It didn't work and I'm pretty sure it made my supply worse as I was supplementing in the evening with milk pumped in the morning.

As you clearly seem like you're struggling to cope, then some time away from baby - even short stretches- might help you. My SIL used to take DS out for an hour or so in the pushchair to get her shopping done, which really helped. Just try to make it short spells, just to recharge yourself between feeding spurts, as long ones won't help you to increase your supply - which is what all the feeding and sucking is doing.

Good luck and keep going!

I too have had trouble with DS2 clawing at my breast and crying. Two things that really helped were walking around whilst he did this, which encouraged him to latch on and feed (with me still walking around until he settled then I could sit down), and me cutting out all dairy products from my diet 'til he was about 14 weeks. He calmed down gradually over a few days, 'til about a week later he was quite a chilled little man!

Good luck - it really is the most awful feeling when your LO is distressed isn't it.

Thank you - please keep the suggestions coming! I am feeling slightly better as I made it to the group and found that DS has gone from 7 11 to 8 1/2 so the breast feeding is working on that respect. I tried to nap in the afternoon but DS was too restless for more than a cat nap, but I managed to cut her feeding down to less than an hour, 1 till 2 and 4 till 5; she's on DH's lap atmo and we're going to bath her next. The only bottle I'm going to keep is the one after her bath as it helps her settle to have DH give her that one, and I have a plan - I'm going to open up the sofa bed after dinner and nap on it while DH watches TV, then feed her and try and get her to settle which she usually does after an hour and a half first time in the night; then sleep next to DH until she wakes again, feed her again downstairs on the sofa bed and try and curtail her to an hour, I can walk her around downstairs to try and distract her; if not we can go to bed there and she can feed lying down - it's a start and at the weekend the HV suggested a system similar to hopefully's system so we're going to give it a go, may well post tomorrow in a desperate state but we'll see - TF

I am having huge flashbacks reading your posts, lots of people giving good advice. Well done on the weight gain by the way, she is obviously doing well.

This may not be relevant but just in case; my DD1 used to really fight the breast and when I was discussing it with bf concellor before birth of DD2 she said sometimes they do that if you are holding the back of their head so that they cant move away when they want to (ie I was squishing her against my boob and she felt trapped). She showed me how to hold DD2 so that her neck and cheek were supported by my thumb and first finger but she could move her head back if she wanted- lying down feeding helps with that as well. Also with DD1 I didnt get the latch right so amongst other problems she was very windy as she was sucking in air, which lead to much grumpiness, for everyone. I watched lots of clips of latching on online with DD2 which helped.

In terms of sleep, passing the baby back and forth in manner of organic relay baton is completely normal at this age youa re doing really well, lots of babies dont sleep well if they are not held. That also gets better, often from about 6 weeks. In the early days I used to put DD2 in the sling , walked until she was asleep and then lay back propped up on sofa with her still in it and had a nap myself. No idea what SIDS guidelines would make of that but at least I knew I wasnt going to drop her.

Hope you have a better night.

tenacity- I would imagine there are lots of places for a baby to fall down in a sofa bed, so I'd suggest DH sleeps on that and you use the bed that is bound to be safer. (Co-sleeping on a sofa is absolutely not recommended)

I'm not sure about limiting the feeds to an hour all the time. (Maybe having a break each hour would be good though). I guess it depends how long you leave it before you start the 'next' feed.

I was having a chat yesterday to someone at my baby bistro (BF support group - although I'm still not a peer supporter as they have no money for training I do try my best!). She feels the pressure with people always asking her if her DS is "still feeding" and whether he's sleeping through the night yet (and he's only about 10 weeks and was 4 weeks early IIRC). I just reassured her that it was exactly how it was for me - and she could see how healthy my bouncing 10mo is!

Glad we're helping!

Would the sofa bed be ok if I draped a sheet over the back, to cover all the gaps, there aren't many due to the design, it won't really be do-able to sleep the other way round, it's a very big bed?

Tena,

Have you tried swaddling her tightly with a shawl and placing your bra or top that you wore that day (for your scent) next to her? If she is lying swaddled tightly and can still smell you (from the bra or top) she might think that you are still cuddling her and stay settle for longer - this "fooled" my dd for a while

tenacity- its a decision you'll have to make - its not about them falling out so much as rolling - or being rolled by your movement - and getting wedged into gaps and suffocating.

Why is the size of the bed relevant to the sleeping decision?

Hope you had an ok night!

I'm sick of hearing people say that their babies slept in their own beds from day one and fed on scedule and napped without complaint! last night dd was asleep by 8.30 but only after an hour of shushing then 1/2 hour in her sling, which is the only way to get her off;i then slept on the sofa till her 11 o'clock feed which we got down to an hour 1/4 and she did go back to sleep in her crib; and amazing i got to sleep until 3.30; but then she woke and i had made a nest on the floor of the nursery which wasn't that comfortable but i think i had a little doze, but she still fed for two hours + and wouldn't go back down; not sure i';m getting the lying down feeding position right, feels like it's too nipple, noy a propper latch;back in the big bed and managed to sleep until 8.30 and then had a shower - ds bit snuffly so hopedthe steam would help and dd likes the sound of th power shower - then decided to take her out morning and afternoon in yhe sling so she sleeps, trying to slowly increase the gaps between feeds so she is a little more hungry so feeds a little quicker, she's feeding now but still a bit restless, trying not to hold her head!

haven't read the other answers - so just in answer to the op - maybe she is frustrated because there is no milk as soon as she latches - she ahs to work at it a bit. Either try feeding her a bit sooner, or try expressing a bit by hand first to stimulate a let down so that it is ready for her.

And they are not always hungry when they are crying - maybe she is tired, or hot, or windy, or needs a poo. She may well guzzle from a bottle in those circumstances - but not because she is hungry but because it is easy and distracts her for a few minutes.

Try not to get tensed up about it - because then it becomes a vicious circle.