I have a question that will make you all judge, but I'm going to ask anyway!

[hopefully]

DS is 7 weeks old tomorrow, gaining well and generally healthy, and exclusively BF. He was 9lb 8oz at birth, and despite losing quite a bit initially is now following 75th percentile line almost to the letter.

In the evening, he has his last feed at 10:30pm, after which I leap into bed and DP settles him (he's usually settled by midnight/half past). He then wakes like clockwork at 4-4:15am for a feed. I've been slowly cutting down this feed over the past 4 days, as he is gaining well, and he's happy to settle after just one side now and sleep until around 7am-7:30.

Sooo... Although I'm getting that one longer stretch, because he's colicky in the evening, I don't really get any sleep before then, and because I wake up when DP gets up for work at 7am (and so does DS) I don't really get much sleep after his 4am feed, so I'm basically existing on 4.5 hours sleep per 24 hour period.

I'm contemplating either introducing a formula top up (going to try EBM for a couple of days first) or a full formula feed (so at least DP can give it occasionally) for his last feed, and I was wondering if you could share with me any experiences of topping up/replacing that late feed with formula with babies around this age/weight. If you all tell me it will probably only gain me an extra 15 mins sleep, I won't bother, but if there's any danger of it helping him to sleep till 6am or beyond, I might give it a shot! I may, of course, try it anyway so DP can give him a feed, but I may as well express the feed if he'll only go the same amount of time on EBM as formula.

Please don't flame me for wanting him to sleep more at such a young age! I know he might not whatever I do, but I'm getting nastier and nastier to poor DP from lack of sleep, and feeling pretty low from it (on the weekends when I get to sleep in the day, I am a new woman!)

I don't understand..if you are in bed at 10:30pm till 4am that is 5.5 hours sleep already. Plus 'some' sleep between 5am and 7am, that sounds like going on for 7 hours sleep. What is keeping you up ? Are you having trouble going to sleep after being woken up or is your DH/DS keeping you up somehow.

Ditto about day time naps, do you need ideas on relaxing and being able to get some sleep whilst your DS sleeps ? Even if you can't actually sleep, just lying down with your eyes closed can help recharge your batteries, wish I could do that with DC2 but I spend any nap time running after one or the other child

sorry babies, i prob didn't explain properly - feed starts at 10:30pm, ends about 11:20, I'm usually in bed by 11:30, but we live in a tiny house, so I hear DS grumbling to DH (not crying, just making noise) until about midnight, and then he's up any time from 4am.

Any ideas for relaxing during his day time naps much appreciated! He actually slept for 2 hours at lunch (not unusual actually) and I was sat there waiting for him to wake, not really getting on with anything, but not resting.

Hopefully, Just some random thoughts

What about earplugs if DH is keeping you awake or telling him that you need your sleep and he needs to be quiet whilst you sleep.

From your post your DS is in your room are you co-sleeping or is he in his own cot/moses basket ? If you don't co-sleep would you like to try it or side-car your cot minus it's side.

I would definately try to nurse lying down in bed for the night feeds, less tiring and if you co-sleep means you don't even have to get up to put the baby back in a cot.

You mention that you 'settle' him by Hushing/patting, hav you tried nursing him to sleep ? It is so easy to nurse your baby to sleep (if your baby will do it) and they will learn to self settle when they are older.

Re. Burping babies outgrow there need to burp, you might be able to just lie him down after a feed with no burping (on the other hand you might not)

As for daytime naps, take DS to his sleeping place/bed/cot and lie down on your bed, shut your eyes and try to relax.(easier said than done). Don't worry about your son waking up and needing settling, you will wake up if he needs you.

Does any of that help ?

Hopefully I agree with all that babies has written, but I'm guessing you've put energy into the 'routine developing' that has thus far taken place, and would be reluctant to do anything that feels like regression.

However, can I be a bit mischievous and suggest that you are trying to get a baby just a few days old to modify their sleeping habbits, whilst as a grown woman you are denying the ability to modify your own. Surely if such a tiny baby can do it you can?

Try just getting into bed. Even if you don't sleep you'll get some time out, and who knows, once you get used to it you may 'learn' to fall asleep. LOL

While I agree with most of what BabiesEverywhere has said (especially co-sleeping), I have to disagree strongly with two statements - or at least give you an alternative view on them.

Re nursing to sleep: My ds1 learned to settle himself by being stroked to sleep from a very early age (I didn't shush), ds2 OTOH slipped into a feeding-to-sleep routine at about 8w. Ds1 was and has remained a fantastic sleeper. Ds2 was and is a dreadful sleeper. Over the months he fed more and more at night, until, at about 12m, he was insisting on sleeping with my breast in his mouth, and waking every 40mins if I took it out. It took me months - and a lot of tears from both of us - to teach him to sleep independantly. He's 2, and we haven't quite achieved a full night yet, but there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Re outgrowing the need to burp: Ds1 (the champion sleeper) needed to be burped as long as he drankf rom a bottle or sippy cup. The only times he didn't settle or woke shortly after being put down if I didn't burp him before putting him down. All my children burp during their bedtime stories!

Good luck! My fully ff dd still hardly ever sleeps through, she is 2.5. Am tempted occasionally to try the Formula Solution with fully bf ds but I sort of don't like why they supposedly sleep longer. Plus I kind of like him waking a lot when he is little anyway, think it's safer for babies not to get into too deep a sleep on their own
So I am another co-sleeper here who just lets him latch on as necessary without getting up {blush]

As you asked - DD never had any formula but we did try EBM for bedtime feeds. It was hit and miss, some nights she slept better other she was worse. She was and still is a big fan of BFing when she is tired/poorly/upset. Some LOs just settle better at the breast.

It is worth a try if you are happy to do mixed feeding but I suggest EBM first and see how that goes. If she likes the bottle and settles well and you want to see if a FF will help stretch the sleep out then go for it. Just express before you sleep to keep the supply going.

Oops, didn't see the other pages...
I nurse ds to sleep but take opportunities for him to fall asleep without. IMO this will help him learn. Dd learned gradually to self-settle, though she has a dummy. Have forgotten to wind ds since the first few weeks, and don't do it at night. He burps and is sick a lot though.

If you don't feel like you are sleeping, do you need to sleep in later? So maybe get up with him at 5 ish or whatever but then go back to bed for the next stretch? I ask because me and dh complement each other - I can do broken nights but find getting up early HARD (and him vice versa). So I do nights but he does early morning. Or I put a film on the laptop for dd and doze with ds. And we go to bed early a lot. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and be in bed by 9pm. It goes in phases...

My bf dd2 was still doing this at 6mths!! DH gave EBM for me at 11pm for a while but then she just point blank refused all bottles after a couple of weeks. I ended up turning completely to ff because of lack of sleep. However, 7wks is very small and he is actually doing really well.
Do you feed him in bed with you? I found that was my saviour as I fed lying down facing dd2 and she would feed while I slept. I couldn't have contemplated this with dd1 as I was obsessed with Gina Ford. I learned that you have to abandon the 'you'll spoil them' and 'they won't like it when they go into their own room' stuff to be able to bf dd2. I had her at the end of my bed in her travel cot when she outgrew the moses basket at 6wks. Then I would lift her and latch her on the minute she started rooting so she didn't cry and put her back when I stirred again iyswim. That way I felt it was easier to get back to sleep.

Gosh, so much advice! I am trawling through it all and discussing ideas with DP for what will work for us. Thank you for all your thoughts and ideas.

Those of you saying I need to relax when he's asleep in the day, you're entirely right - there's always 'just' one more thing to do (laundry, washing up etc). I am resolved to just go and lie in bed, even if I only read, and even if it's just for one of his day time naps - they are so predictable that I really should be able to do that for one of them.
Maybe that will improve the night time situation enough that even if he doesn't go a longer stretch (although fingers crossed as am topping up with EBM for the next few nights) I'll limp on with exclusive BF a little bit longer and, as I said previously, at least know that I've tried everything before putting him on a formula feed.

PS to answer the question, I found that one bottle did not make any difference as I still couldn't go to bed early. The only difference was when I changed completely.
dd1 bf 6wks, slept 7-7 at 12wks
dd2 bf 6mths, slept 7-7 at 7mths.
I will get flamed but it is just my experience and obviously could be fluke.

Well I topped up DS with a fraction over 1oz of EBM last night aftter 10:30 feed. He was totally uninterested, but we pretty much dripped it in and he swallowed.

He started grunting like clockwork at 4:30 this morning (this is normally what wakes me, then he comes round fully and I whisk him off for BF). I was so pissed off that top up hadn't made any difference, that I rolled him back onto his side (he is propped on his side as it's the only way he falls asleep, and he wiggles away from his wedge and rolls onto his back in his sleep), patted him a couple of times and decided to sit on the edge of the bed until he was really demanding feeding (bad mother).
He grunted for another 10 mins, but the eyes stayed firmly closed, and he nodded back off again.
The same thing happened at about 5:30 and 6:20, he still didn't wake, and eventually he came round at just after 7 for a feed. Obviously my sleep was still disrupted, but a lot better than getting up and feeding! I'm assuming that since he didn't actually properly wake up that I'm not a failure for not feeding him?
Interestingly, when he did feed this morning, not only did he take a massive feed, but he stayed awake for only 20 mins afterwards and then slept for another 90 mins, so he obviously was still happy to have more sleep.

That is why I kicked my babies out of our room. I found I was waking them for feeds because they get so noisy!

Two words: Ear Plugs

You'll still hear him when he starts yelling, but the hedgehog-style snuffling won't disturb you.

When DD was a few weeks old, someone who already had a couple of kids suggested them to me, and I was horrified that anyone could be so neglectful, but this time round, there goign to be wedged in my ears from the time my contractions start!

when he's at the staring stage have you yried stroking his forehead down to nose gently with one finger. my ds sometimes just forgets to shut his eyes! the stroke makes them close his eyes as if to blink but because he'a tired they then don't open again.

Aw, nickymorris, that made me smile! My ds does that too. Still do it on my dd who is 2.5yrs to soothe her.

Ooh I'd forgotten that one nickymorris. Used to do it a few weeks ago with much success, will remember it when he's next staring and forgetting to sleep,

hi, new to this. Is it possible to go to bed early eve sa 8pmish even if little one is collicky then partner could see to him then when he needs feeding at 10ish he could bring him up to you(iv just reread the thread and this seems to be what 'cmotdibbler' suggested aswell). My 12 week old(second child) is having ff at 10.30pm but is still continuing to wake at 4am, also only takes 2-4oz at ff feed. I express at 9.45ish while he's still asleep then give him the bottle of ff at 10.30 as this is what io did with my first one, but as ff is not helping him to sleep longer in night i might swop the ff for bottle of ebm. When he wakes for the 4am feed i feed him lying down and then after burping him just let him sleep next too me which means im asleep again by 4.30/5 and then he stirs bout 6.30-6.45am. I know some people don't like co sleeping and i never thought i would but it is only for 2hrs and it seems to help us both settle really quickly.

opps didn't see this page, HOPEFULLY i did the patting etc to try and see if he would stay asleep, thats how i got him through the waking at 2 and 4 i found that he easily settled again at 2ish without feeding so obviously wasnt hungry but is hungry at the 4 feed

That's good news, Hopefully. Presumably you're familiar with 'core night' - I think it's one of TBW's ideas? Because if you can do that again for the next feww nights, he may well continue sleeping through and you can get a good solid stretch of sleep.

Once ds1 started sleeping through at 9-10w, in order to keep him sleeping through I had to stuff him during the day. Five feeds or more (including the dreamfeed at 10-11ish), and he slept through the night. Less than five feeds, and he would wake for a feed during the night.

Just thought I'd update for all of you nice people who offered advice/ideas etc.

We've had a couple of nights of giving DS an EBM top up. He was totally unimpressed, and it was taking half an hour to get an oz down him. The result was him sleeping 2 hours longer both nights we did it, but I think that had more to do with the feed taking longer and him then taking another 30 mins to settle (so an hour extra awake) than the feed. it was such a hassle that we've decided to tackle the 4am feed in a different way. The last 2 nights I have left him totally swaddled during the feed, and have literally only had to feed for 15 mins before he's pulled off (still awake) and I've been able to settle him quite quickly, meaning he's been back in the cot within 60 mins of waking.
I've also managed to lie down (not sleep, but rest) during his morning nap.

It's not made things 100% better, but it has improved them a lot (despite the odd horrendous few minutes!), and I figure even if it only gains us an extra week or two of exclusively BF, then that's a good thing. Maybe within that time he'll start going a longer stretch at night anyway, and even if he ends up with a late night formula feed, at least he will be that little bit older.

Thank you!

Well done - you've found your own way of making it work. And it will get even better, somehow, some day!