I have a question that will make you all judge, but I'm going to ask anyway!

[hopefully]

DS is 7 weeks old tomorrow, gaining well and generally healthy, and exclusively BF. He was 9lb 8oz at birth, and despite losing quite a bit initially is now following 75th percentile line almost to the letter.

In the evening, he has his last feed at 10:30pm, after which I leap into bed and DP settles him (he's usually settled by midnight/half past). He then wakes like clockwork at 4-4:15am for a feed. I've been slowly cutting down this feed over the past 4 days, as he is gaining well, and he's happy to settle after just one side now and sleep until around 7am-7:30.

Sooo... Although I'm getting that one longer stretch, because he's colicky in the evening, I don't really get any sleep before then, and because I wake up when DP gets up for work at 7am (and so does DS) I don't really get much sleep after his 4am feed, so I'm basically existing on 4.5 hours sleep per 24 hour period.

I'm contemplating either introducing a formula top up (going to try EBM for a couple of days first) or a full formula feed (so at least DP can give it occasionally) for his last feed, and I was wondering if you could share with me any experiences of topping up/replacing that late feed with formula with babies around this age/weight. If you all tell me it will probably only gain me an extra 15 mins sleep, I won't bother, but if there's any danger of it helping him to sleep till 6am or beyond, I might give it a shot! I may, of course, try it anyway so DP can give him a feed, but I may as well express the feed if he'll only go the same amount of time on EBM as formula.

Please don't flame me for wanting him to sleep more at such a young age! I know he might not whatever I do, but I'm getting nastier and nastier to poor DP from lack of sleep, and feeling pretty low from it (on the weekends when I get to sleep in the day, I am a new woman!)

My DS went through a period of not settling after his night feeds and would often be awake for 1-1.5 hours. It is horrid, and I think that is probably making you really feel so tired. But it did pass - it started to get better around 8 or 9 weeks and he would then quickly go back to sleep after a feed. TBH once that had passed, I found I could cope much easier with the night feeds and get back to sleep myself very quickly. By 10-12 weeks I was doing much better in terms of feeling rested.

We did/still do the formula thing and it didn't help his sleep at all, but meant I could get to bed early. But as others have said, there are risks associated with ff vs bf and you have done so well to get this far, that I would definitely go down the ebm route first before using formula if you decide to give him a bottle.

I found napping when he was napping difficult as I was quite awake when he napped but then exhausted by about 4pm. One thing I started doing was lying down on my bed to give him his late afternoon feed and I found that I would often doze off while he just fed and that he would often doze or just lie quietly beside me. I could get an extra hour or so sleep this way and felt more refreshed for it.

It's a horrid period, but it will pass, probably much sooner than you think.

Have you tried co sleeping? My ds wouldn't settle at night unless he was latched on, so I just took him into the spare bed with me. It got to the point where I didn't even know when or how long he had fed in the night, because I slept through it all!

It also meant that my dh got undisturbed nights which was especially important as he had quite a long drive to work and falling asleep at the wheel would not have been a good idea.

You can take to bed together during the day for a nap. If he wakes, you are right there, so no need to worry about him.

I know that it's not for everyone, but very often it is the best solution for the family as a whole.

hi hopefully - I agree that this is a sleep issue. with dd1 i felt like i was existing on 4 hours sleep for months so i do know how you feel - with dd2 i just sleep better even tho' she feeds the same and more often than your ds.

could you get yourself completely ready for bed at the 10.30 feed and feed him in the bed, (that'll make you feel moresleepy) he may even fall asleep and then maybe your dp couldmove him later if you're worried about that.

I second the ebm botle and going to bed earlier.

relax about him waking and you not hearing him - you will. If dd2 is being loud (or dh is snoring) I sometimes sleep with 1 ear plug just to get more sleep.

he's sleeping really well for his age and you're doing really well

Hopeful, i started to mix feed about 4 weeks ago, this was out of sheer desperation as my nipples were so sore due to tongue tied DS, he's 10 weeks old, i must say it did not work for us, i also thought it was make life easier, but for me it never,he diddnt really sleep any longer, and most of the bottles came right back up (sometimes at full projectile force), his nappies absolutely stunk, and i really missed the bonding feeling of breast feeding, i have now gone back to exclusive BF, and just co sleep and he is only waking up once in the night (about 5 ish) we dont even really wake now, he just latches on and falls back to sleep when he's had enough, life really is getting easier as he is getting older, and he definately seems more settled with the breast. good luck, hho;pe it all works out for yoyu

hi leonieD we were wondering about you on the pn thread - hope you're OK

It worked for me - I mixed-fed my daughter from birth (BF and FF) but found in doing this you get very little support from anyone - and I wouldn't expect to get much on here!

The midwife (firmly in the BF camp) didn't approve of formula and my GP didn't see the point in continuing to breast feed if I was giving her formula anyway.

DD always had a late night bottle feed, which my DH was able to give her, and I got to sleep for 6-7 hours at a stretch from when she was very young.

Good luck!

There is nothing wrong with wanting more sleep!!! We started giving a bottle of EBM at 11pm around 7 weeks and it took about 10 days for us to see a difference -- meaning that I was getting up 1-2 times instead of 2-3 times in the night. Then one evening I could only express 10 ml (!) so we gave some formula also, which DD devoured. Then we started always giving a formula top-up after the EBM. And since last night, I decided to stop expressing, mainly so I can go to bed earlier. Getting 5 hours of continuous sleep has worked wonders!

Thank you very much for all your different thoughts and opinions - it's really good to hear how different things have worked for different people, and it's given me lots to think about if we decide that expressing isn't working/is more hard work than it's worth.

hi hopefully I asked the exact same question a few weeks ago and was told no a formula top up made no difference to sleep so I decided not to bother. DD3 is 16 weeks now and her sleep is getting a little better although we are going through a growth spurt now.

We cosleep and she's up about twice a night and I just hoick my top up and let her help herself.

I have two other DDs (4 and nearly 3) so sleeping during the day not an option for me, I've found DD3 is the easiest in that the other two are always wakening for bad dreams/toilet etc and wakening me up but DP goes to them the baby is easiest as she just needs a boob.

"I'm getting nastier and nastier to poor DP from lack of sleep"

I remember being absoultely vile to everyone because of lack of sleep, but was reassured by another mum who said the same. (and sleep deprivation is used as a form of torture) But it will pass. I'm not making light of your situation, but the phrase 'this is a phase' needs to be used by you at every opportunity... (and will come in handy for the next x years)

There are lots of very good ideas on this thread, but the most important is to do as little as possible when your baby does sleep. No rushing around 'just' doing housework/ finishing something/ hoovering/ sorting something out etc

It's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phaseIt's a phase...

Your baby being fed, and you both getting plenty of rest and cuddles together is more important than anything else.

Lack of sleep is a real pisser, but some babies just dont sleep very well (I know this from DS!). It will pass, but, just remember you arent superwoman despite what anyone might expect.

Having 3 babies, with various experiences of mixed-feeding, breastfeeding, sleeping and non-sleeping, I don't think that giving the baby a ff is going to make any difference to his sleep. Though of course it would mean that you could go to bed at, say, 9pm. TBH 4h or so at night is not bad for a 7wo. But I think helping him learn to settle himself is going to be the key to gaining you a longer stretch at night. If he falls asleep earlier he may still wake for a feed after 4h, but you would then get another couple of hours sleep before your dh woke, especially if the baby fell asleep quickly.

I have found that a good way of teaching a baby to self-settle is to put them wher you want them to sleep and stroke them until they fall asleep. It may be that he will object, having got used to being cuddled to sleep (if I have understood you correctly), but you must simply persevere, even if he cries. The crying would not be fear or distress, it would be anger at not getting what he expects, and you would of course be with him. But I don't think he would fight it much at such a young age.

Also, from your description of him being colicky and prefering to be upright after a feed, I wonder whether he may be windy. Does he burp easily? Does he vomit or posset much? Have you ever tried settling him on his side or stomach, or tilting the cot (a wedge under the mattress, or blocks under the legs)?

I would try and rest in the day when your DS sleeps, it can be hard at first but you soon got the hang of it IME.
I found co-sleeping meant I got a decent amount of sleep in the night in between feeds, also means no getting out out of bed and DSs both easier to settle when in with us.

Prettycandles I settle him by shh/patting (good old baby whisperer) for all his naps, but have avoided doing it at night as it will wake DP. Have spoken to him and he's (of course) happy to be woken by me trying it for a couple of nights, so I'm going to give that a go. Not sure why I've been avoiding it, I never really thought DP would mind, but have a fear of it not working and ruining my settling routine for day time naps!

Interestingly, burping has got more difficult over the past week. I do my best to burp him during/after feeds (and always used to get everything out), but over the past few days he's woken after a few minutes asleep during almost every nap, I've picked him up, he's belched, gone right back to sleep again and not stirred till the end of his nap. I assume it's that he's relaxing enough in his sleep for the burp to move, but needs to be upright for it to come out.
Anyone got any good burping techniques? I just go for over the shoulder or sat up on my knee. How long should I give him before giving up on getting a burp out?

Well hopefully, I bf dd and she slept fine. But with ds it was a different story. He woke around 3-4 times a night, EVERY NIGHT for half an hour at a time for a feed.

When I started losing weight as quickly as he gained it, I thought about stopping one feed and replacing it with formula. Naturally the feed just before bed looked appealing.

So when he was around 6 months old I put him onto formula for his last night time feed. He then stopped waking up so frequently, he went down to waking twice in the night, and then just once.

It could be coincidence, it could have been the formula. But my advice is, don't torture yourself. If you are tired and grumpy in the days then you won't be enjoying your baby. A good night's sleep can make the world of difference and turn you into a much happier mother - which means a happier baby too!

And if he still wakes up as often with that formula feed, you can still revert to breastfeeding. It'll take a bit of time for your milk to come back through, but you haven't lost that feed forever, you can re-establish it.

Aha! Nasty old wind.

Try sitting him on your lap, then gently tipping him until he is completely over on his side, hold for a couple of seconds, then back up to centre. Hold for a few seconds, then repeat on the other side.

You could also try changing his nappy (or going through the motions if it doesn't need changing). They'll often release a whopping burp when you pick them up again.

You could also try burping him between breasts, IYSWIM.

Why on earth should shush/patting wake your dp?

Thanks for the burping tricks, will give them a try.

Probably I am estimating the volume of my shh/patting! It always seems v loud to me in a quiet room, but it's probably not actually loud enough to wake DP.

Feel like I've got lots of things to try, so at least if I decide to introduce a formula feed in a week or two or more, I'll feel that I've exhausted all the other options rather than just giving up, and with a bit of luck enough time will have passed that he'll be beginning to sleep a bit longer anyway.

Good point about reintroducing BF if necessary rhubarb.

Neurotic PFB mother? Moi?

My dd used to have a very similar routine and as dh is away overnight quite a lot i got into the routine of last feed 10ish put her in cot (awake or not) and go to sleep.

She woke between 4-5am I would bring her into bed with me and she would feed I would drift but didn't feel quite so awake so not so knackered and she settled well after the feed as well.

sorry should have said bf

Hopefully, I've not read the rest of the thread so maybe this has already been mentioned, but please don't pin your hopes on a FF changing his sleep. My LO is 7.5mo, was ebf until around 6mo, and has always been a horrible sleeper. He's now fully ff during the day and on three meals a day and it's made absolutely no difference. We do occasionally have a 'good' night which is when he's only up a couple of times a night, but for example last night he was up every hour as he's teething

Sleep deprivation is a killer and I've probably not had more than 4 hours sleep in a row since he was born, so definitely try to nap when he does (v difficult I know). And if you have any family/friends who could take him even just for a couple of hours so you can get your head down it really makes a difference.

Hope you get more sleep soon.

On a positive note - we did the baby whisperer shush/patting technique too, and after a few weeks my LO learned to self settle for naps during the day and going down at night. So even though he wakes up alot at least we're not spending forever and a day trying to get him to sleep in the first place...

Hi,

my son is 8 weeks and was been very unsettled recently as i got a tummy bug and I could keep nothing down for 3 days. I topped up with forumla for 2 nights whilst i recovered as my millk was not very good. I made NO difference to his sleep at all. In fact, once i was eating again and bf him in the evening he had two nights of sleeping right through. He's back to one/two feeds a night now but from my experience with a similar age baby, it is a total myth that formula makes babies sleep longer.

I would go with the expressing and let dh do dreamfeed. i go to bed at 9pm and i hate missing out on my evening but i know that soon enough he'll be settled enough for me to risk staying up later and having some time on my own.

DS (8 months) was referred to the Paediatrician at my request due to slow weight gain. The Paediatrician said that there was no point in introducing a supplement (formula) as all it would do is to make DS feed less (as b/fing is on supply and demand)