My opinion on why bf often fails

[sunshine75]

Quite a few of my friends have recently tried to bf but have given up by 4-6 weeks. I think it's because they have had a pump in the house from the very beginning so if baby wouldn't latch on properly/only feed for a few mins/feed for too long then they expressed and gave baby a bottle. Soon they were expressing all of their feeds, their supply began to diminish, they introduced some formula top ups and then gace up completely.

With hindsight, I think my meaness and refusal to buy a pump until I was desperate (about 6 weeks) meant that I was able to continue.

Sooooo, do you think early use of breast pumps can hinder breat feeding?

i totally agree with tapster. having a pump and bottles made me feel prepared if baby needed extra. however, my big big wobble with bf was because nobody (not even the NCT breastfeeding counsellor whose group I had diligently attended in foolish belief it might help prepare me for bf - most of the problems i encountered were not mentioned by her at all ) mentioned that cluster feeding was normal. DH and I had read, and been told by NCT bf counsellor, that a baby would feed roughly every 3 hours with no mention that that was probably after 6 weeks rather than from the start. I was anaemic after losing a lot of blood, and we therefore assumed that the intense cluster feeding and not settling was because i had crap milk supply because my body was exhausted. coupled with a baby who refused to get back to birthweight until 3 weeks and then was (and still is) a very slow gainer, it's no wonder that we introduced formula at 2 weeks and were too scared to try going back to full bf

fortunately i then got great support on mumsnet and managed to resist introducing any more formula even when supply got a bit hairy. expressing helped stabilise supply (so pump worked great for me) and i am now bf DS at 7mo (still has his bottle of formula at 11pm - determined to bf until he has stopped that so at some point I can finally say he is just on breastmilk!)

so for me, it is all about education and support. i know two girls who were able to excl bf because they had no problems at the start, but all the girls who introduced formula either partially or fully did so because they came up against a problem - mastitis, cluster feeding, thrush - that nobody had prepared them for, and then the support we expected was conspicuously absent when we needed it most.

I had a horrible start to BF with badly cracked nipples and infections. I would not have been able to keep feeding if it hadn't been for the pump which enabled me to express some feeds and give my nipples some healing time. DS is now 1 and still feeding like a maniac!

DD1 never latched on - ever. I tried for three months. She took formula from a bottle after several days (she was severely jaundiced - needed milk - probably had bad advice from medics yadda yadda yadda) but without a pump she'd have had no breast milk at all. As it was, she had three months of BM but all from a bottle. She barely latched on that either though and milk cascaded out of the corners her mouth all the time she drank. She would take three hours to drink 2 oz of milk so all I did was express, visit every counsellor going many times to try and sort the latch out and painstakingly feed her EBM. And help look after my ill mum (cancer and Alzheimers) - no support from that side of things but no-one's fault.

I hired a huge industrial style pump in the end since I got repetitive strain injury from the hand one. Once I started formula feeding the world was a much brighter place I must say. For me the 5 mins it takes to clean and sterilise the bottles was no bother. Don;t really understand when people say it's a problem. I found farting about with my breasts a thousand times worse.

And let's ban use the the word 'failed' in this context. Does no-one any good at all.

I thought bf would either work out (great) or totally fail (in which case easy decision to give formula in order to keep baby alive). I really wasn't prepared for it to be continuous pain and problems over 8 weeks (so far).

I had good support before birth, including the advice that yes, practically all women can bf with the right support, but that means you having seen women bf every day of your lives, growing up with hundreds of anecdotes about it, and that knowledge is spectacularly absent in our culture.
The other good advice was "You live in London. There are shops." So didn't buy much before birth. Although this did mean that at 2 1/2 weeks I was in hysterics and packed MrNC off to the nearest Mothercare to get a pump, better pillow, infacol, and 'any other overpriced crap that might help'.

But when I needed help, I spent two hours phoning all the helplines and getting answerphones (in the middle of the day), not finding anyone nearby who could visit, was used as an example of good latching to a trainee HV who had never seen anyone bf before, local bf cafes advertised on the NCT site don't actually exist, and I had enough other problems at the same time that bf just couldn't be my only priority. Mumsnet wasn't much help and reading that it should be possible to bf in all cases just made me more depressed and had me thinking I was obviously a failure and might as well just give up bf.

I've tracked down various bf counsellors etc, but it seems that many (esp online) found bf easy and therefore assume it should be for everyone if they're doing it right. It reminds me of school PE teachers - if you can't catch a ball, you just aren't trying enough. My SIL was the most encouraging one, pointing out that yes her baby was exclusively bf at 5 months, but she'd found it very easy despite doing the same as me, so she couldn't help me as I was different. Stopped me feeling I'd failed.

Everyone I know who's given up bf had thrush, mastitis, and/or gross failure to thrive of the baby, or all-night baby screaming. In my case the pump enabled me to keep giving breastmilk-only for 6 weeks while my left nipple took 4 weeks to heal from a crack. Not sure how long I can cope with thrush though. But at least I'm no longer feeling guilty about on average one formula feed a day and around 7 breast feeds.

mrsnormanmaine - think you post totally sums it up. there shouldnt be a "success" or a "failure". surely all that matters is that the baby is loved and nourished to the best of the mums ability. feeding is a personal choice. I ff DS1 and am BFing DS2. both are easy but they are different children and different circumstances.

@ Wispabarsareback

Sorry, I didn't mean it would be down to lack of effort at all - I just wanted to add my experience regarding the whole did-you-get-enough-support thing.

And I forgot to add that I did have a pump for expressing, but I got it after a few months and used it only on my one-night-out-a-month so that dh could feed ds. I'm not sure if it would have made any difference to have the pump there already, as the op suggests.

Also agree about the "success" and "failure" labelling being Not Good and really not very helpful to anyone. I would say the bf "worked out" for us, and I feel very lucky about that. I certainly don't think of anyone who couldn't bf as having "failed", that sounds awful!

Thanks Fledtoscotland (like your name by the way - that's what I'd like to do). I have three children and all my births and early months have been during serious illnesses and deaths of older family members, including my mum. If you are able to be surrounded by support and really focus on getting past the difficult early weeks of breastfeeding I think that's amazing, but not everyone is able to find those circumstances.

As mentioned, DD1 never latched on and when DS was born I had to be taking my mum, who had advanced dementia, to oncology assessments and searching for her with the police when she went missing. He had no problems latching on at all and fed with great enthusiasm all night and all day. Thought I'd cracked it this time but after 2 weeks found the mastitis and bleeding nipples and exhaustion too much and used a pump for a couple of days - thank god I had it there or I would have switched straight to formula. If you are under extreme emotional strain for other reasons the difficulties of breastfeeding are hugely magnified and none of the counsellors I met really seemed to understand - including online - very similar to NOCITRUS. DS had mixed feeding until 3 months when my auntie died in very upsetting circumstances (she was an alcoholic but I was very close to her - especially through Mum's dementia). Suddenly my brother and I had to spend a lot of time travelling to her house in the country to deal with the whole thing and DS ended up on formula full time. Didn't seem to bother him since he'd always been happy with bottles and breast - so long as he had milk he didn't care where it came from.

DD2 came along this year and also fed well - both from breast and EBM from a bottle but decided to switch to formula after a few weeks because I found it easier and felt different about the idea of 'failure' this time. By then we had another family crisis - my SIL was diagnosed a brain tumor and we are very involved with supporting her and her family.

Without a pump my three would have had a lot less breastmilk. I know women have been breastfeeding forever, and got on with it even if the rest of the family was being devoured by wolves or staggering about with bubonic plague. But there is also a history of babies who died due to 'failure to thrive' or similar. We do the best we can. I felt dreadful about DD1 because I had never intended to do anything other than breastfeed and when it didn't work it felt like another profound thing going wrong in our family.

That's why I feel so strongly that feeding is a personal choice and sometimes the encouragement is so evangelical about the feeding itself that it fails to take into account the mother's other circumstances. Eventually the encouragement to continue bf began to feel like bullying - and I have friends who feel the same - and it contributes to feelings of failure when it doesn't work, just as people trying to persuade mums who are happy with their bf choice to use formula is annoying/upsetting.

But 5 years on I look at my jolly, friendly, kind little trio, who are healthy and allergy free, raised during the most difficult years in our family (DH's mum and dad died in the last two years too) and feel anything but a failure.

What a story MrsNormanMaine. You sound like one strong woman to have got through all that. I completely agree with you about the way the circumstances are often not taken into account and that it can make you feel bullied, I certainly did.

I think the BF friendly culture is fabulous, don't get me wrong, but when it doesn't work out then you can be made to feel like a failure as a mother and bloody selfish to boot.

There is not enough support out there, or the 'support' that is there just 'doesn't do what it says on the tin'. The MW and HV just didn't give me any other options (not expressing, or mixed feeds, or anything). It was BF or nothing. I think if I'd had more support (and the medical profession had worked out that his little jaw had been pushed out of place - see earlier post) then I would have persevered. The Baby Friendly attitude has gone too much in the other direction in some ways and has made it horribly 'unfriendly' to those mothers to whom BF doesn't work out.

I'm going to try and get lots of support in place before I have DC2, tho I will make sure that the support is supportive and not just someone telling you to persevere and get on with it....

Oh and get the Lanisoh ready before hand!!

Thanks Ineedmorechocolatenow. I agree that our society should support and celebrate bf - definitely and have taken issue with people tutting about it in cafes etc. Although I have also been tutted at for ff - but we all know half the threads on here are are testament to "you can't please all of the people all of the time". We'd like a fourth baby and if things are calmer and we're not racing up and down the country I will try to bf again and, as you said, get the support lined up in advance!

Learning to breastfeed lying down was the best thing ever as i got to relax completely and this helped with the milk let-down and also it meant i could breastfeed at night without having to get out of bed! Especially as DD2 was born in winter.
I just could not bring myself to go downstairs and make up bottles.

ripe i think this is one of the most over-looked ways to prolong BF, teaching someone to reliably get baby latched whilst lying down.

was never able to do this with DD2 and although she was an absolute dream to feed, i weaned her onto formula completely at 4 months because could never crack the lying down bit.

i don't find bottles a faff, FWIW.

i'm a pretty organised person and get hold of about 8 bottles and make them up once a day.

I do what expat does - 8 bottles and do them once a day - I'm not organised by nature but since having children have got a lot more so.

then, when you want to go out, just put the powder in a tub and pack up the bottle and bob's your uncle.

I don't think I agree with that theory (although what do I know!!). I think maybe BF fails so often because of the seemingly prevelant view that bottle feeding is the norm. I think people who are completely ignorant of that view (like me - it never, ever crossed my mind to FF, I thought everyone breastfed as was v surprised when I discovered how wrong I was!) just get on with it and get through the often difficult early days because it doesn't cross their mind to stop.

I had a breast pump and it was a life saver for me for 2 reasons (i) one of my breasts got really really sore and cracked and bleeding when DD1 was about a week old. I didn't feed from that side for a couple of days and just expressed from it, which allowed it to heal; and (ii) I paid a night nanny to come in one night a week (9pm to 7am) for the first 6 weeks - this was a god send, I made sure I had expressed lots over the course of the week so there was enough milk available to see DD through the night, did one final express at 10pm then put earplus in and slept until morning - HEAVEN, it saved my sanity and probably gave me the stamina to keep on feeding.

Exactly - and you could even get uncle bob to feed the baby.

Or Fanny your Aunt

I hated expressing so much it didn't really bother me. It's so much easier to put baby on the breast than it is to pump out milk, sterilise bottle, then put milk into baby!!!

I'm a breastfeeding counsellor and in my experience it's lack of support and not understanding how breastfeeding works and the different stages your baby goes through. Especiall growth spurts!! That's when mums start to think they don't have enough milk. Help with positioning is also vital. Nearly every Mum that comes to our drop-in group has their baby too far to the side and doesn't start nose-to-nipple. (I was exactly the same!)

Also the cluster-feeding in the evening is very useful to point out to new mums

I don't think early use of breast pumps can ALWAYS hinder breastfeeding, it depends on that mother baby pair and their situation.

I think the biggest problem is lack of support, from hospital, family members, friends and general public.

I agree with kathryn2804 it would be good for all new mums to know about cluster feeding and growth spurts, so they don't think their milk supply is low.

kathryn2804, Not seen you around before ? Just being nosey, who did you do your counsellor training with ...NCT, LLL ?

One breastfeeding counsellor (who was very good incidentally, if a little harsh at times) told me that bfdng was like eyesight. Some people needed glasses. I think everyone I knew who succeeded worked hard at it and didn't make elementary mistakes like waiting 4 hours between feeds, giving babies bottles in the middle of the night etc etc. BUT BUT, it has to be said that some of these friends were naturally good at producing milk. Milk flowed. Others of us for physiological or pyschological reasons found letting down milk less easy. In the end we found a way to continue doing what we wanted to do, ie: bfd but we needed help. Like people needing glasses. We needed top-ups, or we needed intensive babymoon settings, or special advice in positioning. So if no-one tells you that you need glasses, it's likely you will stumble around in the fog. Does anyone agree with this, or is it nonsense that some women are physiologically better at bfdng than others? In retrospect I realise I felt inferior. Comments like my mother's - "She just feeds the baby for ten minutes on each side, and you can hear glug glug glug.." re: my sister and her new baby six weeks younger than my twins - didn't help. However it is true that my sister's baby was going glug glug glug and my babies weren't!

Clare Byam Cook - whose writing and approach I generally do not like - uses the 'some people need glasses' analogy. It is ok, up to a point.

I think there's no doubt - and in fact we have research to show it - that women's capacity for milk does differ. Some women make loads at a time, and others make less. The ones with a smaller capacity feed their babies more often and the opposite applies, too. Some women really do struggle to build a supply, and others breeze through the whole thing. Some mothers have babies who are difficult to feed, and others don't. Some have families and/or partners who undermine them and reduce or even shatter their confidence. Some get the right support and info in the early days and get off to a good start - some don't. Some have really unrealistic expectations of how bf works, and others don't. And so on.

So there's a lot more to this than the bf equivalent of poor eyesight

I would say that the glasses analogy is the support that some people need to bf - you wear your glasses and you still use your eyes to see. So you get your bf support and you still use your breasts to feed

Yes, it was CBC. Thanks for replying. And very few people are actually without sight at all...

I'd love to be a BF counsellor. Although I have never had the worst problems. I wonder how you become one?

Interesting. I expressed a bit for a couple of months - kept a bit of morning milk for the evening (when I thought I didn't have enough milk). But then it became more of a faff than it was worth. With hindsight for me expressing was more about trying to have a bit of control with than just going with the flow('scuse the pun).
The things that made me come closest to using formula were the fact that 1)I had no idea bf was so mentally draining and that cluster feeding was normal. 2) Or that babies didn't only bf once every 4 hours. 3)Mother and MIL constantly saying 'give her a bottle'.
I went to a 'bf workshop' and it was all far too jolly, no mention of the awful first two weeks! HVs seem to think that if they make out that it is all very easy that will help people. The truth is that it is easy - but only after you've been doing it for a few months!