My opinion on why bf often fails

[sunshine75]

Quite a few of my friends have recently tried to bf but have given up by 4-6 weeks. I think it's because they have had a pump in the house from the very beginning so if baby wouldn't latch on properly/only feed for a few mins/feed for too long then they expressed and gave baby a bottle. Soon they were expressing all of their feeds, their supply began to diminish, they introduced some formula top ups and then gace up completely.

With hindsight, I think my meaness and refusal to buy a pump until I was desperate (about 6 weeks) meant that I was able to continue.

Sooooo, do you think early use of breast pumps can hinder breat feeding?

Stitch I don't think the comment was nasty, I have to say I agree with Kathy as well.

I was determined to BF and did eventhough the beginning was a nightmare, I had a pump (which was very helpful for a couple of days when the pain was too bad and I needed to give one side a break- I was trying to get some bleeding under control). I also had a free sample of formula (courtesy of the hospital) which I kept as a safety item- in case I had an accident/got ran over or something! I figured it was a useful thing to have in the house and it gave me peace of mind.
I ended up throwing it out.

I would recommend to anyone about to give birth to buy a pump- if you are having problems on top of recovering from the birth, the last thing you need is to have to run to a shop or a hospital to rent one.

I think the biggest factor is the lack of knowledge about cluster feeding in the evenings - my DD fed on and off for hours each evening when tiny. I often think that "colic" if often a hungry baby or one that wants to suck to stimulate future milk. People think even tiny babies need feeding only every 3 hours. People then don't feed often enough so yes they don't have enough milk when the baby needs it. HV suggesting formula top ups should be shot IMO as most babies don't need to, and growth charts ripped up too.

Pumps are useful for blocked ducts, or when your baby starts sleeping through and you can't sleep because you are so full of milk. I never used the milk to feed DD.

Oh, I didn't expect to get such a response. I know it fails for loads of reasons and some people have to express. It's just my small sample (5 people) it has been because they started to express really soon.

I 'failed' (I also loath that word) to breastfeed because DS had his jaw pushed out of alignment by the forceps and couldn't latch. 10 days later, my breast pads were more bloody than my sanitary towels, my son was vomiting up blood and also pooing blood and he'd lost a pound in weight. The pain was excruciating and I was not bonding with DS, in fact I flinched away from him whenever he came near me because of the pain.

I had to express so that he at least got SOME milk from me. I was grateful for the pumps and was able to feel better about feeding. He couldn't even latch on to bottles and it was this and the constant screaming that led me to a cranial osteopath who popped his jaw back in (amazing to watch). You should have seen him when he had his first feed after that session! He latched on and practically took the whole bottle in!! I'd given up feeding by this time and my supply had gone.

The thing that got me was that my midwife was quite happy to watch all this happen, I had no idea about support groups or La leche or anything like that. I had lots of support from DH. I didn't know about mumsnet then, I wish I did!

I did bond with DS, but it took about 6 weeks, and I still dreaded feeding him, months later after moving to FF.

It all sounds very over-dramatic, but is was so traumatic that I actually didn't think I'd have any more children. It was, by far, the most traumatic thing about the whole experience.

I am now 10 weeks pregnant and DETERMINED to BF this time. I'm going to get a support network in place beforehand and, of course, I've got Mumsnet

Sorry for the long essay!

I was extremely fortunate to have been breastfed, so my mom was able to help as she was here when both babies were newborn. But I still had loads of problems with the latch, especially with DS.

Breastfeeding is such hard work. It isn't easy. No one tells you it's going to be hard, it hurts in the beginning and it takes a lot of patience.

My son was jaundiced and we spent 10 days in hospital and he lost more than expected weight. Without expressing, I am sure my milk would have dried up.
I breastfed for 11 months.

I think the most damaging thing for breastfeeding is the myth that "if it hurts then you're doing it wrong". I was told this at the NCT and in the hospital and it is inaccurate in the beginning (Unless you're one of the lucky ones. Not me unfortunately!)

We're on mixed feeds now because DS was visibly shrinking and inconsolable on BF alone, despite near constant feeding at all hours. This was also driving me to distraction with lack of sleep. While mixed feeding is the worst of both worlds in some ways (you have all the palavah of both methods!) it has worked out to be the best of both for us, in that he gets some antibodies from me and some calories from the formula. I'd always advise friends to have some emergency formula in the house just in case. Looking after a baby is tough enough without making it harder for yourself in the hope of forcing yourself to stick to BF. What does it say about BF that alternatives have to be physically removed from the house to make it happen? I know I put myself through hell before admitting I had to supplement with formula, even though a tin of powder was sat right there on the worktop the whole time. My principles about what I had planned to do for the welfare of the baby were coming before the actual welfare of the baby.

Sorry, that sounds a bit extreme. But for all the people out there that just slip into using formula because its there, there are plenty of others that guiltily struggle against formula when they ought to give in for their sanity and the baby's health.

'I think the most damaging thing for breastfeeding is the myth that "if it hurts then you're doing it wrong". I was told this at the NCT and in the hospital and it is inaccurate in the beginning (Unless you're one of the lucky ones. Not me unfortunately!)

We're on mixed feeds now because DS was visibly shrinking and inconsolable'

That about sums it up.

Why it fails?

No support.

Not midwives during the day, but bloody RL people there, helping the mother with every feed, every time, during the first few weeks.

Covering every base - feeding lying down, feeding if your nipples are cracked and bleeding, feeding whilst engorged, day or night.

And none of this 'tuck up in bed and have DH wait on you'.

What about your other kids? What about your home?

Sorry, but not all of us can stand not sleeping and letting your house and yourself going to runnels.

So it will fail sometimes because changes like that will never happen.

Expat - brilliant post! The friends of mine that have b'fed successfully are the ones that have expected to just sit down and do nothing except breastfeed in those first months and even now, they constantly have their boobs out....its all about expectation I think..incidentally though, they are all from M.East countries where you just get your head down and ride out any discomfort/lack of sleep issues as is a big no no if you stop breast feeding for anything other than medical reasons. Interesting perspective...

I personally found b'feeding hell and a big failure for not keeping it up past 6 weeks...

each mum and baby is different each BF experience differnt/unique.many variables.reductionist to attribute to one factor

Ahh but no support is the major factor...it was the reason I didn't succeed...add a lentil weaver HV into the mix waxing lyrical about it all and looking as if I was going to give DS arsenic when I suggested one bottle of formula to give my bleeding nipples a chance to heal or pumping as that was softer on my nips - she nearly had a fecking heart attack at that....it all adds up to no support!

The majority of us want to breastfeed...that's why the topic is so emotive...we need to look at countries where the breastfeeding rate is higher and look at what they are doing better - I bet you there is more after birth support!

i think it fails because

1. total shock at being needed so much as a new parent. Introducing a bottle can give new mums a bit more freedom.

2. v easy to attribute any thing and everthing to bf and if it is not going well can feel like personal attacks.

3. well meaning (not) relatives/friends who come from a bottle feeding culture undermining it in many ways, leading to nutso first time mum feeling inadequate.

i would disagree. With DS1 i desperately wanted to BF but we were both unwell and the mw advised us at 5 days a bottle may be easier on both of us (he had a skull fracture and found it difficult to suck/i needed medication).

with DS2 i had a pump as well as formula. being more relaxed meant he has been BF from day 1. in fact the formula has been given away and the pump sold on ebay.

for me equipment didnt play a part with either son

I think I must be in a minority in that I had no professional support at all because I didn't want/need it.

While pregnant, I decided that bf was the way I wanted to go, so I found out EVERYTHING I possibly could about it, including what sort of problems to expect and anything that might go wrong. When ds was born I felt really ready to just get on with it. No problems with latching or "not enough" milk, bf whenever ds wanted it (which was indeed ALL THE TIME at around 4 months and during other growth spurts), etc etc.
MN and Kellymum were a HUGE help, reading all the stuff on here/there really helped masses. I felt totally prepared and able to do it.
And btw, I bf exclusively for 6 months, and then carried on until 14 months while doing BLW, so a big, HUGE thank you to all of those posting about bf 20 months ago!!!

And yes, I do tend to be a bit - ahem - stubborn and single-minded about things (I didn't even have a midwife, which is practically unheard of around here).

i absolutely agree with EXPAT ...

i had ds 3 w ago and ds was trying to bf and a mw noticed he had tongue tie, but told me it wasn't seriuos, she didn't want to refer it as it waas mild and there was no point, and to eep bf.. so, with huge nors, ds munching my nips, it getting more and more painful... i eventually cracked and was almost hysterical with pain so much so i refused to feed screaming ds as i was almost spasaming when he was tring to latch and feed.. dh ended up driving to supermaret in night to get formula...

the mw who then saw us out of hospital took one look at ds and said 'he's getting refered, that is a severe tongue tie,' and then looked gobsmaced when i explained i had to express my milk as i could no longer feed, mw said she woiuld not have expected me to be able to feed as ds would no be latching on so he was grinding and pulling on my niples to draw out minimal milk which would then explsin my horrendous pain and his constant feeding... if i hadn't expressed he'd have hardly had any breast milk... all thanks to some dim mw who ignored the severity of ds tongue tie just to keep mr tryng to bf even though to another mw this was an obviou bad choice, justy to get a tick on th bf chart...

sorry, but freom my experence with dd and ds and my brother and his wife, this subject makes my bllod boil with quitew often sh*t support from some maternity services...

I've yet to hear that many positive stories about Midwives post birth tbh...separate to B'feeding but my midwife didn't even notice that DS had an umbilical granuloma that he had to have cauterised....

Re BF - a lot of them seem to push it at the Mother's emotional expense...its as if they are going to get the sack if they say anything positive about expressing etc...I know for me, she made me feel as if expressing was the worst sin ever and would lead to milk drying up blah blah but since reading more about it, it can be a useful bridge until the breasts are healed enough to start exclusive b'feeding again

May mnet needs an online chat with some midwives/health visitors??

I think the biggest reasons are lack of understanding that it can be painful and needs time and patience

We are encouraged to be up and about so early after giving birth, we have lost those few days/weeks women used to get. Our lives are all so rushed now, in the 60's mums used to be in bed, in hospital for up to 10 days, then go home to family helping. We are slung out of hospital after a few hours and left to get on with it

I have to say I had great support from MW in hospital (had c section so was in for 3 nights) and from health visitor when I got home. I had mastitis early so had to express to drain it but didn't use the milk for DS.

After about 6 weeks DS hadn't put any weight on and I was beside myself with worry/guilt/new mother hysteria. DH was telling me to use formula (based on the opinion of his dad ) and I nearly give up. However the HV told me to pay no attention to weight charts as they were a complete waste of time and it often takes time for babies and breast milk to sync up.

It depends so much on the support you are given, especially from MW and HV - they really need to stop thinking about their charts and tables and use some common sense.

i wanted to ff but i was so tired from bf that i never got round to reading the instructions on the steriliser. still bf at 9 months. lost three stone. completely knackered. but defo glad i did it. ds has milk allergy since found out so no chance of stopping for a while

Bully for you, rebelmum72 - not everyone finds BF a doddle. Like you, I fully intended while I was pregnant to BF, and I knew about the possible difficulties etc - but knowing about them isn't the same as solving them. And I wasn't prepared to let DD scream with hunger for days on end while I tried to get her to latch on properly. Some people find themselves having to express or switch to FF, and it isn't all down to lack of effort on our part.

Haven't read rest of thread, but I was told by bf counsellor not to use a bottle till 6 weeks.

The flip side of this is that I know more than one person who had huge problems breast feeding at the beginning (tongue tie, v. painful mastitis) who were certainly far more heroic in their attempts to give their children breast milk via expressing than I was not expressing. There is a point where expressing is the best way to feed a baby.

My big negative with expressing is that you can get swept up into the whole "testing your yield" nonsense, and think that the amount that you express can be used to find out how much nutrition your baby is getting when it breastfeeds. Having a pump around definitely didn't discourage me from breastfeeding with number 2. The faff of expressing and sterilising the bottles was far, far, far too much bother.

" The long, frequent feeds associated with most babies in their first few weeks of life are seen as a problem because so few people have any idea that this is entirely normal."

And of course because the most popular baby books tell you that it isn't normal and that, infact, it is bad for your baby.

The problem in expressing the first few weeks is that the supply, essentially, belongs to the baby. Obviously it depends on why someone is expressing - if the baby is in special care, then this falls under special circumstances. If there are issues with inability to feed directly, then again, there are reasons why direct breast to mouth cannot occur.

But, if there aren't major issues, and expressing is for the purpose of allowing other people to feed the baby and allowing the mother to have, sleep, freedom, space, then supply should be established.

Expressing is such a double edged sword, and I have see babies who prefer ebm via a bottle than breast... I don't know why...