Somebody stop me from walking out the door and not coming back

[passedwitsend]

I'm falling apart here and need help. Last night I put LO to bed at 6.30, she woke up at 9 fed, screamed and cried and eventually fell asleep at 10. She woke up again at 11.20 fed, screamed cried and fell asleep at about midnight, same again at 1.30 - 2.15, 3.30 - 4.15, 5 til god knows when and then I lost track. I've just put her down screaming in her crib and I think she's fallen asleep. I'm downstairs and don't dare go back into the bedroom to sleep incase I wake her up. I can't do this anymore. I've got to the point that I don't care why she's crying, I just want her to stop. I hate being like this, I know she's a defenseless little baby but I can't help it.

There's a lot going on developmentally at this age too which can make baby unsettled.

Also agree with pps wrt dp helping out. I remember when I went back to work when ds was 1, I found work much less exhausting than staying at home, even after a bad night. Peace and quiet and a hot cup of tea!

my baby is much younger than yours but i have found that he sleeps sounder and longer when he's in bed with me. i'm sure the warmth/heartbeat soothes him - could you try that?

You are totally right VS, supplimenting won't help if you are totally committed to BF but presumably if you are ready to stop altogether then it has to be better than stopping altogether. I expressed for my DH to give DS a late evening feed so that I could get to bed, however with DD it was just another pressure to add to the list. Looking back DD and I were not feeding properly and her weight gain became a real issue. At the time I would have had a nervous breakdown if you have suggested to me that I was not in a properly established feeding routine. I could not have taken on anymore pressure, as I perceived it, even though it was true. I had no help or support and other than DH, everyone wanted me to give up BF. The guilt that you have as first time parent (I found) can be almost overwhelming. Sometimes you need to have one thing that make lifes easier and if that is to suppliment and not express then surely that is more beneficial than giving up altogether and feeling like a failure.

On the other hand, we don't have a great deal to go on so it is hard to tailor advice accordingly. Things just seem really bleak when you haven't had a sleep in months/ years and it can make you depressed when you hear the 'just keep going you will get throught it' stuff all the time as I didn't feel I like I ever would

VS - What did you do with DS2 to stop him being overtired?

xx

Surely the first thing we should do is ask the questions to tailor the advice rather than mention supplementing at all?
I understand you're trying to help, I totally get that, but the over-tone of the thread seems to be 'give a bottle' when the answer could be 'put baby down for more naps in the day'.
I do agree that if it's give up completely or supplement then supplementing is probably the best solution but the OP may not have to do either

To be honest, I don't think it is the overtone of the thread, actually. More people have asked questions and talked about co-sleeping and breastfeeding than have suggested a bottle, and nobody at all has said formula is the answer. A bottle can be a bottle of expressed milk. The urgent need is for some rest and a break. It's hard to make changes when you are so chronically sleep deprived and desperate. Getting help from a partner during the night was absolutely essential in my case.
I agree getting the baby into a daytime routine of naps can really help - it did in my case, but not until my baby was about six months old. Before then, he wouldn't play ball!

WME, I started to put him down for structured naps in the day time. It started to happen over the school holidays so my natural routine had gone all off kilter.
To start with I stopped feeding him as soon as he woke (I used to feed at 7amish when I got up, I stopped this feed) and started feeding before the time I wanted him to nap (9am, just after the school run) by then he would be pretty tired and fall asleep feeding (at the beginning to establish the routine how they get to sleep isn't important, it's just getting them used to being asleep at this time.

Then I would wake him at about 11am when I went to get DS1 (so he'd slept 9:30-11am) keep him active for the next two hours, whether it was in his bouncer or me playing with him or him rolling around with DS1, just active, feed him before his nap at 1pm(ish) he'd sleep until roughly 2:30 when I would wake him and get DD from school. Then again, 2 hours(ish) activity and a feed and a nap at 4:30, wake up at 5:30, bath at 7:15, feed at 7:30, bed by 7:45.

Every time I put him down for a nap I would not give in. He was going down whether I had to do pick up put down, or feed him again, or bath him (the bath/shower was my one stable, if he wasn't showing signs of tiredness I'd bath him before feeding him then I'd know eh was going to sleep) Now he is used to that routine and follows it most days and I feel human again as I'm getting sleep!!

The general rule of thumb is 2-3hours awake, then feed, then nap, the nap should last at least 45 minutes(one sleep cycle). DS2 is best at night if he has about 5 hours sleep a day between 7am/7pm.

Supplementing was one of several things that I mentioned- eg, demand feeding or 'scheduled' feeding, cosleeping, general health, routine or the need for comfort. You picked up on the supplementing issue which IS also an option and one that I don't think people should be vilified for.

That sounds good VS. My LO is clearly overtired most of the time, and like the OP, I'm knackered!

xx

passedwitsend I hope you can speak to someone in real life about all this. Posting to mumsnet can be helpful, but I think in this case it is bound to be confusing and risks buffetting you from place to place - none of us know your full story, after all.

For what it's worth, I think it's highly unlikely there is a physical reason for your baby's behaviour, but of course it is possible, so it's a good idea to get it ruled out and then you know where you are.

Dogmatic assertions - like on here - about what your baby 'should' be doing regarding feeding are not helpfu. Plenty of normal, healthy babies feed several times in the night at this stage - and it is also normal to scream in protest if the baby wants to stay with you, if this is what's happening. Changing a young baby's needs by 'training' can be distressing and difficult, and it can be easier to change expectations and also sleeping arrangements....right now, you need to work out what will give you the most sleep while preserving your wish to breastfeed. Supplementing does not necessarily improve sleep (in fact some research shows it makes no difference at all) and may impact on your breastfeeding. Do talk all this through with a real life person

I think this is a great place to get advice with a non-sleeper! Loads of us have been through it, and it's wonderful to hear that you are not alone. YOu get a lot more honesty here than at a baby group where everyone seems to have perfect sleepers and you feel like a failure. There is also the wonderful reassurance that even nightmare sleepers like mine can turn into champion sleepers before they are one

tiktok- very true, I expressing my opinion and personal experiences and obviously don't know the OP. A real life friend/ HV would be able to ascertain what would work best for her.

My decisions, as a very structured person, helped me feel in control and stopped me from being the grumpy, sleep deprived misery guts that I was. I made mistakes (for me, DD and DH) the first time round and was keen not to repeat them. I was not a good Mum when I was so miserable and I had an unhappy baby as a result. Again, for me I was happier to structure things more but was never 'training' anyone. It meant that the fear of going to bed and having yet another unpredictable and horrible night was lessened. I felt that I had done as much as I could to ensure that the LO had their needs met in a tangible and measurable way (X feeds/ X amounts of sleep etc). It gave me some reassurance and made me feel better.

OP- good luck.

I totally disagree. I had no real life friends who had a bad sleeper like I did, and even if they did, their advice would be no better than anyone else's. HVs are notorious for saying 'give formula/controlled crying/your baby doesn't need feeding' - no better and often worse than Mumsnet. I think it's useful to read a range of responses from people who have been there and come out the other side. I remember that awful fear of going to bed too!

mabanana, I do think it a good place to post, don't get me wrong, but there are drawbacks! One of them is that in real life, a sensible, caring and knowledgable person can ask questions and get answers and listen - the clamour of voices on a talkboard can 'sound' very noisy

People's experiences and opinions can be supportive, but in the middle of a crisis, they can add to the confusion...so a talkboard, and only a talkboard, may not be the best source of help.

Apparently there is a right way and a wrong way here though. I stupidly thought that it was about finding a way that worked for you, your baby and your family. Had I continued to demand feed/ not give a bottle (of expressed milk) and cosleep with DS (as I did with DD), I would have ended up on anti-depressants and divorced. Bad sleepers are awful and sometimes, to feel better/ get a kip you need to drop your ideals' and change your reality. I did.

Ah, but I think there as many sensible, caring and knowledgeable people here as anywhere, and certainly more here that have experienced a chronic non-sleeper than in my circle of friends! I think it's good to get a variety of ideas and opinions. I have seen dozens of posts just like this one from which people have managed to get good advice and help - knowing you are not alone is a great help for a start. I have been there with a sleeper as bad as this one and know exactly how it feels.

Are you using a dummy? Your lo cant be hungry every hour if they are feeding well, ie. a good 20-30 mins non stop sucking feed is a good feed, then baby should be able to go atleat 2-3 hrs without feeding. Try using dummy as comforter, baby may be using you as a dummy. Also, it may be that its apetite has increased and milk alone may not be enough, maybe introduce solids, e.g baby rice before bed? hope this helps.

I got my sleep advice from a thread like this. Only difference was as I had previously breastfed I saw it as a sleep issue rather than a bf one iyswim.

Deaby did you post that purely to wind people up?
Her baby is not yet old enough for solids, and a baby doesn't 'use you as a human dummy' but a dummy as a breast replacement. But then I think you knew that anyway and were just posting for reaction Helpful. Not.

Hi everyone. Wow, what a response. Thank you all so much for your advice. I've just had a health visitor come out and she was fantastic. Its the first time I've been able to spend more than 5 minutes with a hcp and actually have them listen and not push their own agenda. Things we identified:

1. She may have silent reflux so I'm to go to the GP to get some infant gaviscon which may help
2. she has very poor tongue movement so she's going to get the head honcho bfc in the area to do a home visit and see if she has a tongue tie which can be treated
3. she's put on 14 oz in the last week where she normally puts on 3-6oz in a week, so clearly we've been going through a pretty major growth spurt
4. I scored 18 on the Edinburgh PND test, normally if you score 11 or more you're referred. We think this score is symptomatic of the situation, rather than true pnd but we're going to monitor it.
5. LO is picking up on my stress and emotions which is making her upset and we're in a vicious circle.

I feel more positive already having spoken to someone who knows what they are talking about and also took the time to listen to me and how I feel. She's very pro bf, blw etc etc so didn't say anything about weaning, formula etc etc which I really didn't want to hear.

So thank you all for your advice, particularly regarding sleep patterns and napping which is something I really need to work on. Also good to hear I'm not alone in going through this and others have had LOs who have gone through this.

Thanks again x

three cheers for the hcp! and wow what a weight gain - well done you sounds liek you're doing a fab job.

Sounds like a great HV you've got there, and what a weight gain!

xx

Yes, its only taken me 4 1/2 months to find one who knows what she is talking about! And I can't tell you how shocked I am by the weight gain, having a little one who has dribbled along the 0.4th centile having dropped from the 75th, this kind of gain is unprecedented! She's even moved out of the scary shaded area at the bottom of the growth charts!

passedwitsend, am a bit late to this but just wanted to say you sound like you are doing th emost amazing job. I had a tough time BF my 3rd child, other 2 were a walk int he park compared to DD3. I was in agony, she puked up feeds, fed every hour, ohhhh it was awful. Thing is I can barely remember those days now and when I think about the year I BF her for I just rememebr the soft glow from my lamp, her soft head and the little arm slung over my breast or holding onto my boob and those little gulping sounds.

So many people suggested I give up int eh early days but I had no intention of doing so. Establishing breastfeeding with DD3 was one of the hardest things I'd done but looking back it was over such a short period in relation to everything else and once it was established it was bliss and I'd feed her walking across the playground to collect DD1 etc.

You're doing brilliantly and it's just going to get btter and better. Keep posting

passedwitsend so glad you got some good advice form the hv you sound much more positive
hope the rest of the day is ok