So today I learned that gorillas nurse their young until they are 3 or 4....

[georgimama]

That's it really. Was at Bristol Zoo and the lovely keeper gave a talk about all their gorillas. They have a 23 month old baby and he is still nursing and apparently will continue to do so until he is about 3 or 4.

I just thought that was lovely. Seriously cute gorilla baby.

berolina, yes we do. I have advocated the benefits myself. But beware of charities who strive just a little too far to prove the implications of ff. It's not always that black and white.

I breastfed for over a year with one child and over two years with another - I find it really horrible the way people are demonised over breastfeeding issues, and tucked neatly away in boxes labelled 'nasty formula person' no matter what their personal experience if they dare to say something that in the real world would be completely uncontroversial - ie breastfeeding past a year or two is more important if the family live in poverty. All I said, much earlier on, is that a NCT teacher saying 'the worldwide average age of weaning is 4.5' is utterly mistaken and that it isn't, which it isn't. But apparently that's enough to file me as 'demon formula fan'!

Rhubarb, can you post without insinuations, please?

What nerves do you think are being touched here? I have no problem with formula - so not sure if that was aimed at me?

And what do you mean about the charities, please? Can you elaborate?

Can you give a bit more detail about this criticism of FSID?

Just interested. I've had issues with them relating to their dummy advice.

Do you just mean FSID?

I'#m not a huge fan of them

mabanana, I really haven't seen anyone demonising either formula (our issue is with its marketing and distribution, nt the stuff itself) or any other posters. I can confirm that being demonised - e.g. as a 'bf Nazi', as has happened many a time on MN - is not pleasant.

I think "apparently" is the key word there.

I think that encouraging mothers to breastfeed for as long as their children want can only be a good thing. I'm becoming increasingly concerned at how our society is keen (and encouraged by various tv parenting gurus) to detach parents from babies, toddlers and children either with sleeping, eating, discipline etc.

THere are NO proven, or theoretical studies that indicate breastfeeding for as long as a baby or child wants has any detrimental effect. All studies or evidence point towards 'benefits' to it. It'd be bonkers not to encourage it.

All this speak of spoiling children, them not needing it, that they need to learn to comfort themselves is hyperbole.

are you suggesting that this statement:

"Some parts of the US and the UK are positively third world in regard to nutrition, housing, medical care, etc. I think there is something inherently, probably culturally and institutionally racist to say that those people in the third world need breastfeeding more than babies in the West do."

and this one:

"it is racist to point out that bottlefeeding is more dangerous in places where clean water and sterilisation of equipment is impossible or at least more difficult"

are saying the same things?

Rhubarb, this is a perfectly good thread for debating these issues prob the 'safest' type, as no one is asking for support and it is about gorillas I don't understand why you want a new thread - or why if you think it would be better, you don't start one

When and how would you think it would be appropriate to raise the issue of excess morbidity and mortality linked with formula?

I think (for what it's worth) that it can and should be done, not in a blaming or accusatory way, and with an awareness that there is a price to be paid for fuller information, and for treating people like adults and sharing knowledge. FSID, as has been said, publicise the link, after all.

tiktok - I dont think rhubarb really cares about having a debate about it, which is why she hasnt started another thread.

Rhubarb, please stay to debate.

When you said "At no point in this country do babies risk death if we choose to bottlefeed them."

..you were opening a debate on this subject. It would be poor form to make such a pronouncement and then try to stifle response to it.

If you are prepared to accept your statement may be contradicted by the evidence, then why not retract?

If you stand by your statement, then stay to justify it. But your swift dismissal of the evidence to the contrary seems cursory rather than considered. It implies you don't want to believe it. Which is understandable, but doesn't render it unreliable evidence, all the same.

I doubt you would have made a similar statement about front sleeping; "At no point in this country do babies risk death if we choose to put them on their tummies to sleep.", and then closed your ears to the responses.

Are you so sure that the evidence for the one topic is sound, but the evidence for the other is unsound?

mabanana, where were you labelled a "demon formula fan" (!) because you disputed the "world-wide average age of weaning is 4" thing? On the contrary, at least one person agreed with you, and FWIW, I do too - that statement is a load of crap. However a few people posted info about human societies where children are commonly breastfed until age 3 or 4, simply to illustrate that it's not a complete myth (which you seemed to be suggesting, as you said you hadn't seen "a scrap of evidence" to support it). That's all. Please don't take it personally.

Rhubarb, I don't believe you have replied to those of us who question whether you think we should not discuss risk factors when it comes to childcare decisions.

xx

'When you said "At no point in this country do babies risk death if we choose to bottlefeed them."'

That's actually untrue althougyh obviously its exceedingly rare! DS1's weight dropped off to 4 piounds post birth and the meds (the few about- millenium baby syndrome) couldn't find a eason: if I adn't used my own instinct and taken him off formula I strngly suspect I wouldn't have ds1 here now; turned ut to be a severe casein intolerance. But I'm not anti-formula- the fabulous, wonderful soya formula mio saved his little life!. This ds4 is the only esxclusiv bf one and i've had to fight to do that: I beleive its better to BF on the whole but also that most mothers, when given the right information, will make the best choice for their family. Sometimes that is ff.

I don't get the racist bit. My understanding of racism is that it must involve negative connotations to human beings based on their race, colour or creed. All the poeple here are saying in effect is that people with less access to the sterilising facillities, clean water source, etc required for proper prep of formula are likely to have lower risk factors for their baby if they BF: these conditions are more prevalent in countriess where people have very little materially on the whole (I dont like the phrase 3rd world or undeveloped- it implies that all that matters is financial wealth, when in fact many countries people owould class as this have lots spiritually, socially etc- just aren't populated with wealthy people (not sure that makes sense)).

That doesn't excluse the fact that people in the richest of contries living a subsistent existence differ in terms of risk factor, but this is less common because famillies here in social housing do at least have access to clean water, bathrooms etc

I fail to see how that is controversial.

I seem to remember commenting the other day that a subject that?s not really anything to do with how children are fed will always get turned into a BF v FF debate by FFers taking offence at something. Well done, I?m not let down by this one.

Aitch a friends little girl was convinced I had OJ and milk, one from each side.

SimplySally, snakes aren?t mammals, they don?t feed their young - in fact often they eat them.

Rhubarb, I?m interested to know what makes you think the nutritional content changes at the first birthday. Does this include premature babies who have premature baby milk (especially made by mum) until they?re closer to term? I?m also interested to know what food can equal breastmilk because as far as I was aware it?s the most complete good there is. I?ve seen charts that suggest the majority of benefits for both mother and child are from feeding a child until the age of two, are they all wrong?

?it has become culturally acceptable because where do the women in developing countries get their formula from??

Nestle? But I?m unsure of why you keep coming back to developing countries; it?s not just developing countries that nurse their young for longer than is normal here. I?ve spoken to many people who have come from countries that believe in NTBF, I?ve also asked about weaning onto solids and have always had a description of BLW. The sad thing is many of their friends have changed their normal parenting behaviour in this country because what we do is seen to be far more superior because they look up to us for some strange reason.

?Contraception. They continue to breastfeed until they are ready for another child.?

Proudly pregnant and nursing a 2 year old here! I know plenty of people who are tandeming and I?ve known people have children incredibly close together even with breastfeeding. Contraception isn?t as simple an issue as just breastfeeding.

?Interesting that someone presumed I didn't do extended breastfeeding - at what age is extended breastfeeding??

If you did you wouldn?t ask the question.

?Aren't humans one of the only species born at that stage of pregnancy or did I remember that wrong? I'm sure I read somewhere that humans would be born later if we travelled on all fours.?

That?s right VS, the only mammals that are born anywhere near as prematurely as humans are marsupials. Interesting that in more traditional cultures (and I?m sure a lot of posters on here) they try to replicate how marsupials raise their young - baby wearing for example - without realising that?s what they do. (I love TikTok?s answer!)

?Although the joey does a pretty amazing breastcrawl in the first instance up to the pouch and to safety?

So do human babies given the chance.

?OK stupid question time - where are a whales nipples??

Humans do, but some mammals do not. The Australian Echidna and Duck-Billed Platypus produce breastmilk in spite of the fact that they have no breasts or nipples. The mammary glands rest underneath the mother's chest; the young suck milk from pores in the chest wall, skimming milk off of the skin and hairs (it should be called chest-feeding). Whale mothers have breasts and nipples, but baby whales cannot move their lips and so cannot suckle. When it is feeding time, the mother ejects her milk (which is the consistency of sour cream), the baby then drinks it out of the water.

?It does say however that putting a baby to sleep with a dummy may help.?

It also says that sleeping a cot helps, but 90% of SIDS happens in another bed to the parents. But we won?t let the fact they?re sponsored by a bed manufacturer or MAM dummies jade our view. You also need to look into the full study to understand the dummies thing which actually turns it around.

?Necessary? If I had personal experience of SIDS I would be very upset by this.?

I do, I?m not. Facts are facts.

well they would tinksmum because they are evil and the wor of satan (no, not ceationist LOL- just severely phboic)

Rhubarb, there have been some posts of your in the past that I haven't agreed with, but think you are spot on with your original posts on this thread - but they seem to have been extrapolated out of recognition!

By the way, just in case anyone missed one of Rhubarb's original points, she was not necessarily talking about breastfeeding at any age, but for bf after 1 year : "Therefore it is not necessary to bf beyond the age of 1, it is a choice. Those who choose to bf beyond this age don't do it because of necessity"

What do you mean by necessity, Rhubarb and Crumpet? Life and death?

BFing is thought to protect against certain cancers in both mother and child but you have to do it for 1 year+ for this to have any real effect.

Is this necessary enough?

I love all these sweeping statements about when women should stop breastfeeding their children because it's not necessary.

We don't even know what breast milk is entirely made up of yet so how do we know to stipulate when it is necessary to stop?

Very intelligent post, Tinkerbellesmum.

Winkywinkola, Rhubarb has already said what she means, I agree with what she said earlier.

At no point has Rhubarb said (unless I missed it) when anyone should stop bf

Crumpet, the thing is, Rhubarb has made a few fairly strong assertions about the necessity of breastfeeding. If you look earlier in the thread, there was a discussion about the "necessity" of breastfeeding past 12 months. Then the direction of the thread changed to discuss the point about whether a lack of breastfeeding was associated with mortality in the developing world, because Rhubarb had made a separate statement about that. I can't see that anyone extrapolated anything; her statement was very clear.

Re FSID - I didn't mention them as purveyors of perfect advice. My point was that posters on this thread, including myself, have been accused of raising the issue of SIDS in order to "win" an argument (whatever that would mean in this context!) or score points. Presumably FSID cannot be accused of such motives, and yet they publicised the research on breastfeeding and SIDS by issuing a press release, i.e. they intended for the story to be picked up and published by the media.

back to kangaroos and their very premature babies who do an amazing breastcrawl to the pouch where a nipple is located.

don't kangaroos also can be pg, have a tiny one in the pouch and also still be feeding an older joey? i heard that roos are baby making machines.

Complete good??? I think I meant complete food.

I think you're right foxytocin, I'm pretty sure they can have several babies in their pouch at one time, you only ever see the older ones poking their head out though. All this talk of primates is interesting, but if we're going to look to the animal kingdom for parenting advice, the kangaroo and her other marsupial cousins are probably our best example to be looking to as they're closer to us when it comes to their young.

Newborn Joey

As with all marsupials, the young are born at a very early stage of development ? after a gestation of 31?36 days. At this stage, only the forelimbs are somewhat developed, to allow the newborn to climb to the pouch and attach to a teat. When the joey is born, it is about the size of a lima bean. The joey will usually stay in the pouch for about nine months (180?320 days for the Western Grey) before starting to leave the pouch for small periods of time. It is usually fed by its mother until reaching 18 months.

The female kangaroo is usually pregnant in permanence, except on the day she gives birth.