So today I learned that gorillas nurse their young until they are 3 or 4....

[georgimama]

That's it really. Was at Bristol Zoo and the lovely keeper gave a talk about all their gorillas. They have a 23 month old baby and he is still nursing and apparently will continue to do so until he is about 3 or 4.

I just thought that was lovely. Seriously cute gorilla baby.

Upwind - the debate about ff and cot death is not my argument. You can feel free to inform the whole of Mumsnet the dangers if you like, but I retain my right not to get involved. It did not form part of my original point and I do feel that statements such as "formula fed infants were more than twice as likely to die from SIDS than breast fed infants" are not at all tactful, they are hard hitting statements that have the power to hurt and damage mothers who have had 1st hand experience of cot death. It's this lack of tact that I strongly disagree with.

Foxy - "happen to believe that it is part of inherently racist ideas about who is 'allowed' to ext bf and why in the eyes of 'the west'." Did you read my posts? At all? The reason I chose articles about rural Ethopia is because I didn't like lumping together 'developing countries' but I could just as well have chosen China.

The articles I linked to in my earlier posts are written by medical sites working within Ethopia, so I believe it gave a clearer picture of who breastfed and why.

And just to define racism - "Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race." I don't believe that linking to articles and voicing an opinion on breastfeeding in rural Ethopia means that I hold racist views.

All of this is by the by. My original point has now been lost in a black swirl of cot death and racism. If you can't answer the original argument then why bring others into the equation?

LOL at Fio going off on a guinea pig tangent while everyone else is getting het up, and guffaw at Gail Platt - quote of the week please.

definitely - ever seen that episode of the x files where all the people resemble animals? shed have fit right in!

Rhubarb, I don't think your posts or your thoughts are racist and I think it's clear you understand the value of breastfeeding.

You have developed the 'dilemma question' that both hunker and I touched on last night - there is a clear link between formula feeding and an increase in mortality and morbidity from several causes even in developed countries with good health care, clean water and so on. This does not mean direct cause and effect (except in rare instances).

This is not a single study, or an oddball researcher - we have very good, robust studies based on good methodology and large samples.

But saying it 'out loud' needs tact and sensitivity, as I said...I actually think this thread is as ok as it would get on mumsnet, because no one is really talking about their own personal situation or their own baby, but the risk - you used the word 'danger' and I think that's justified - is that other people will read it and find a personal link to the information, and feel desperately hurt

But staying silent, when asked to provide information about mortality and morbidity, is not really an option - if the question is raised (as it was, when you said babies in developed settings didn't die, and challenged more than once the evidence for this) then it has to be answered.

Rhubarb - I'm struggling to find the links you've posted at the moment. Please could you either post them again or tell me exactly which message to find them in? I'd be very interested in looking at the full articles .

Oh isnt it Fio. I never realised that the Joey made it's own way there at such an early stage. I thought they were born, fully formed and just hung out in there.

There are plenty of harsh realities of life. I think it is appropriate to mention poverty in developed countries. It certainly exists to a great extent in the UK - 1 in 3 children to be precise - thats a fair chunk of children. I therefore feel that it is particularly important to encourage natural term breastfeeding to be the cultural norm, rather than formula feeding and/or weaning early - considering children in poverty have less access to meat/fish/vegetarian alternative and fresh fruit and vegetables. (It's detailed in the latest House of Commons report on Child poverty). Children in poverty are more at risk of developing various health issues and illnessess. Breastfeeding to natural term would also reduce this risk as it continues to support the child's developing immune system.

It's pretty necessary, IMO.

And I dont think rhubarb is racist either - i think it's hard to convey a point sometimes without having to over-simplify in order to prevent writing a 10,000 essay to ensure no-one is offended.

Although, I have to say, the examples given were very parochial, IMO.

I think a thread on gorilla b/feeding (that is gorilla and not guerilla ) is as an appropriate thread as you could get to discuss risk factors. Unless of course there are any b/feeding gorillas reading......

"My original point has now been lost in a black swirl of cot death and racism. If you can't answer the original argument then why bring others into the equation?"

i must have lost something early on. i read your early posts as saying that people in the 3rd world need to ext bf but peoplr in developed countries don't for reasons x and y.

no?

and no i was not reading all these posts for lots of reasons. the above issue is the only one i am addressing because it comes up on mn frequently and irks me.

repeating one last time, the idea is inherently racist. i am not calling anyone a racist. some of our ideas need examining in the social context in which we hold them.

Rhubarb, I wasn't asking you to dig a deeper hole, honest. It was as VS said later - you said no babies died in this country through being ff and I knew this wasn't the case. I was interested to hear whether you'd changed your opinion or whether you had anything to back up your assertion or if you'd meant something less definite in the first place. I wasn't trying to catch you out.

I agree with Tiktok's last post wholeheartedly. I have to post if I happen to see misinformation being stated so definitely - I've got myself in trouble by posting on antenatal/postnatal club threads before now for doing just that! But I'm not interested in a fight over it - I've too much else on in my life for flame wars these days [elderly]

The post that has been misunderstood here is this one:

"But you can choose to ff babies and still be fairly sure that the baby will survive being given a bottle. Whereas in developing countries this is not so because of dirty and contaminated water and bottles. And of course many mothers cannot afford the huge cost of formula milk. So for them it really is a case of you breastfeed or the baby risks death.

At no point in this country do babies risk death if we choose to bottlefeed them.

Yes you may argue about the increased health benefits of breastfeeding and the increased health risks of not doing so. But the risks involved in bottle feeding are still small, you are not condemning your baby to a lifetime of asthma or allergies if you bottle feed, the risk is increased, but not substantially so.

If you do breastfeed of course you are giving the baby a better chance of fighting off these allergies and ailments. But it's not a question of life or death for us.

So when people point to countries such as Ethopia and say they breastfeed the child until the child is 5, they fail to mention that the only reason they do that is because there is a substantial risk the child might catch a fatal disease if they didn't.

I'm not trying to turn this into a bottle versus breast debate, merely pointing out the differences between choice and necessity. "

I still don't think babies risk death if we choose to bottlefeed. There simply isn't enough evidence that points to a direct link between ff and cot death, it's all circumstantial. You say that it heightens the risk - under what circumstances? When a baby is put to sleep on it's stomach? Cot death has been blamed on dummies, now dummies are promoted, it's been blamed on fans, on smoking, on pets, on the type of mattress, on bacteria etc etc. I breastfed but I heard enough insults hurled at ff mothers to want to defend them and their choices and I do not agree with scaremongering. If the link was that proven to ff we would all know about it. But it's not 100% proven, nothing is, because they can only identify 'possible risks' and not direct causes. And yes you do run the risk of hurting and upsetting mothers. Just as you do when you tell them that by smoking they are killing their babies. It's not necessary to do that.

As for my posts on rural Ethopia, well you know, I can't be bothered any more. How can you say that a person's posts are parochial and their ideas are racist, but we're not calling them racist! Oh no, perish the thought!

Here is an article about the risks of ff in Ethopia

and here

Here is one about culture.

Make up your own minds. I'll leave you all to pick over the bones shall I? But just one thing - if you ever have anything to say about me, then say it, don't bloody hint it. If you think I'm racist just say it.

Rhubarb, my link wasn't about cot death.

Formula can be contaminated by enterobacter sakazakii. Breastmilk isn't. In particular, premature babies are at greater risk of death from ingesting milk contaminated in this way, although it can affect babies born at full term.

I don't think you're racist.

Rhubarb, you say it isn't necessary to voice the info that ff, or smoking may be associated with increased health risks as it might upset people. Are you serious that mothers shouldn't be warned about possible dangers? Things they may be able to avoid. And if it's something they can't avoid, at least they are aware of increased risks and can act with that knowledge. I am surprised that anyone would think that warning mothers of the danger of smoking was a bad thing in this day and age.
I for one would rather be upset than ignorant of the facts.

xx

have a re-read of your very first post as that is the one i have addressed. but now fail to acknowledge i never knew you later mentioned ethiopia which you have now drawn 2x to my attention.

like i said, i don't think you are a racist, though i know saying it again is not going to convince you of it. i won't waste my evening clarifying this statement either. my free time is too precious these days.

There are many women who are devastated to learn that they weren't told of the risks of ff before they made their decision not to bf. So they make that decision believing the two to be equal, then properly grieve that they weren't allowed to make an informed decision. This is even worse if there has been a problem with their baby.

So someone will be upset either way - why not go for the way that lets women be adults, not children who need to be shielded from horrid truth?

"One meta-analysis of 23 reports (i) concluded that formula fed infants were more than twice as likely to die from SIDS than breast fed infants" - tactful? Necessary? If I had personal experience of SIDS I would be very upset by this.

But I think I have pleaded time and time again without success, for you all to start a different thread and discuss it there because this was in no way related to my original points. Yet posters seem to have gleefully rammed this statistic down my throat for daring to question those sources.

As for contamination - I already said that contamination was a major risk factor in developing countries. Just look at China. But that in this country it is less of an issue as the formula milk here is produced in much more controlled circumstances subject to stringent checks. The only contamination risks are from unwashed bottles. But then dummies and other objects that babies put in their mouths are just as likely to be contaminated.

One last time. You cannot compare this country with a county such as Ethopia. They may practice extended breastfeeding but for different reasons. And I don't think it's fair to say that it's the norm in developing countries, because many mothers in developing countries aspire to bottle feed because of the crap advice given by Nestle paid midwives and because they see it as a priviledge of the upper classes.

But of course, me having an opinion on all of that makes my ideas parochial and racist. Not me of course, just my ideas!

Bugbear? Moi? Nah!

"As for contamination - I already said that contamination was a major risk factor in developing countries. Just look at China. But that in this country it is less of an issue as the formula milk here is produced in much more controlled circumstances subject to stringent checks. The only contamination risks are from unwashed bottles. But then dummies and other objects that babies put in their mouths are just as likely to be contaminated."

That's just not true, Rhubarb. Please research enterobacter sakazakii contamination of infant formula. Or salmonella. One piece of research found 14% of formula they tested was contaminated with it. This is why so many of us are so keen to put the message of "Use freshly boiled water to make bottles" across to people (which formula manufacturers aren't...). It's not on dummies.

underdeveloped countries - I would include rural parts of China, Sudan and Ethopia. Are you saying that malnutrition and hygiene is NOT an issue in these countries? Perhaps not in the suburbs where the rich reside, but that's not the image that comes to mind when someone mentions underdeveloped countries.

Rhubarb, Hunker's link is solid proof that formula fed babies have a higher risk of death, all other things being equal. Yes, it's a small extra risk from a rare complication - but it's there, it exists, and to the parents of those babies, it happened 100%.

As to cot death: It's utterly clear that prone sleeping is a risk. But nobody knows why.

Formula fed babies are also at extra risk. But nobody knows why.

Those 2 risks are both "possible risks" by your definition. At the moment they have the same status of having been shown to increase the risk of cot death even after adjustment for other potential confounding factors, but the exact pathways are unknown.

I completely agree that it would be far preferable to understand the mechanism of the risk. However, there are real lives at stake.

The advice to put babies to sleep on their backs has saved many lives. Would you rather we all waited (and sacrificed a few lives) until the mechanisms of sleeping position were properly worked out? I'm sure that's not what you're saying.

hunker,breast milk can also be contaminated.

This is not a breast versus bottle debate.

welliemum, I will not debate anymore on cot death. Start a new bloody thread. It is NOT MY ARGUMENT.

It's point scoring over babies deaths. I'm not participating.

FSID is a charity which, among other things, supports families who have lost a baby to SIDS. I would imagine that as an organisation they would be very aware of the potential to pain bereaved parents. Nevertheless, they issued a press release (which I linked to) about breastfeeding and SIDS to highlight research which showed a link between not breastfeeding and SIDS. They cite and link to that research. Presumably they thought there was value in bringing it to public attention. Identifying risk factors isn't the same thing as knowing causation, but knowing what the risk factors could help parents avoid them.

Oh god vvvqv, did you have to put Guierilla feeding? I have this image of militant breastfeeders (sorry vs but the face is yours ) sneaking up behind ff babies in Morrisons and shoviomng their norks into babies faces, mock- surreptitious style!

If I dream it tonight I blame you!

btw I have stats somewhere on homes with toilets in India- its way under 50% (the figure I recall is so stonkingly high I am doubting mself and I can't find last years culture exam paper). That's not racism, it's just a fact.

Again, it's not a debate in which I want to get. I know about FSID, I raised money for them.

I'm off to bed. Have fun.

Thank you peachy.

Rhubarb, yes, breastmilk can be contaminated (with drugs, environmental pollutants, etc). I didn't say it couldn't be.

Did you see my post about not infantalising women?