So today I learned that gorillas nurse their young until they are 3 or 4....

[georgimama]

That's it really. Was at Bristol Zoo and the lovely keeper gave a talk about all their gorillas. They have a 23 month old baby and he is still nursing and apparently will continue to do so until he is about 3 or 4.

I just thought that was lovely. Seriously cute gorilla baby.

infochangeindia.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=6109

no figures but we all now how many millions are in slum India I think:

'* As for the facilities of drinking water, toilets and electricity for lighting, about 15% of

the dwellings in urban slums and squatter settlements and 63% of dwelling units in
other urban areas, had all the three facilities within their premises. At the other
extreme, none of the three facilities were available within the premises of about 11% of
dwelling units in urban slums and squatter settlements, and 4% of dwelling units in
other urban areas of the country.

• About 99% of urban dwellings had drinking water within half a kilometre of their premises.
• Residents of around 18% of urban dwellings did not have access to any sanitation facility.'

Racist no. Fact.

and your point is, peachy? (only curious)

Dont misquote me rhubarb. It makes your constant defence of being misquoted a bit silly if you are going to do it yourself. I didnt say your posts were parochial at all. If we are going to stick to the bare bones of the posts - lets ALL do it, hey?

Poverty doesnt just exist in developing countries. THat is a fact. The health risks associated with poverty in developing and developed countries are similar/the same for a number of reasons. It may not be palatable to think that we might live alongside someone who has similar health risks as one from "rural Ethiopia", but those are the facts.

Contamination happens in formula - it's not just about poor infrastructures in countries - its about individuals hygiene - access to knowledge about safely making up bottles - being able to afford the right equipment etc etc. Formula is NOT sterile. Not even in this country. Breastmilk is. That's a fact that MUST be disseminated. A choice is not a choice when the facts arent known.

Oi!

You lot!!

Leave my gorilla thread ALONE!!!!!

top post vvvqv

The point Foxy is that in some countries the facillities required for aseptic formula prep are unlikely to exist

therefore bm is the best feeding strategy for the majority where possible

georgiemama. thought the same thing after about 10 posts when loads got obtuse.

ok. thanks for clarifying

And anyway - since when has "parochial example" been an insult? FGS! Mind you, it's easy to see insult in anything if you want to. I've lived with my mother long enough to know that.......< at hunker>

peachy

I had a dream the other night that I was operated on, as a favour, by Connie Beauchamp from Holby City! It was totally bonkers!

< back - and lady, why are you not a bogginsing?>

Rhubarb, I truly believe I understand what you're saying about developing countries - I just don't agree.

How about if I put your argument in my own words - you can tell me if I've misunderstood - and then point out the bit I don't agree with.

Let's say we have 2 babies, Sam and Sally.

Baby Sam was born into an impoverished family who have no access to clean water, not enough food for the family, no access to sophisticated medical care.

Baby Sally was born into a relatively wealthy family who have clean tap water in their house, plentiful nutritious food, excellent medical care whenever they need it.

Both Sam and Sally are formula fed.

Now, if I've understood you correctly, you're saying that when it comes to formula risks, for various reasons baby Sam is much more at risk. I agree with that.

To take it to its logical conclusion, in an imaginary situation where you could choose for just one of them to be breastfed, the one that would benefit the most from breastfeeding is Sam. His odds of dying in infancy are far higher than Sally's.

Now, this is where, I think, our opinions start to separate. You seem to be saying that because Sally has clean water and medical care etc that it makes no difference whether she's formula fed or not. The clean water will stop her getting gastro infections, if she does become ill, she can go straight to hospital and be treated, etc.

I disagree. I think that it's too optimistic to believe that the advantages of a wealthy society can "mop up" all the excess risk. Take diabetes for example - this will have a big impact on a child's life no matter where they live. It's a horrible thing for a child to cope with.

So in summary: yes, Sam is running a big risk by being formula fed in his environment. That's why healthcare workers are putting a huge effort into promoting breastfeeding for the Sams in the world.

But Sally's risk isn't zero, and never will be. And Sally's mother has a right to know that. What decision she makes is up to her - but it must be an informed decision.

LOL! My network connection is bouncy

So Rhubarb, do you think FSID were wrong to release their press release?

ds2 manad to contract gastro on one sterilised bottle a day

it doesapen here sadly but is less common

shit typing

am bf () as i type (he's over 6 months too. and not a monkey. et)

does happen

managed

PMSL @ peachy's "not a monkey"

Peachy.

Rhubarb, not sure why you've been trying to stifle debate here - it's crass and insensitive in the extreme to go onto a thread where a baby's had a gastric bug and say "This is because you ff, wouldn't have happened if you'd bf" - I can't think of a time it's happened on here and I would be vocal in condemning such a thing.

But this isn't a support thread. Unless some of you are gorillas? [peers suspiciously]

Nooooo, not me.

< Rummages in left armpit, removes flea, eats flea >

hey welliemum - anything you find, you share.

whys this thread been in active convos for days? whats happening here? quick scan ha s not revealed much...
one line answer will do... ta!

Er, didn't Rhubarb say onlhy breastfeeding was no longer 'necessary' after a year in the developed world? In that case cot death isn't really an issue as it's so vanishingly rare after a year that - at most - a possibly slightly increased risk isn't going to make a huge difference. As for the idea that it is racist to point out that bottlefeeding is more dangerous in places where clean water and sterilisation of equipment is impossible or at least more difficult, oh please! Are Oxfam and Action on Baby Milk racist organisations? Because that's exactly what they say, and it's true.

welliemum, excellent post, again.

Rhubarb, I don't think anyone here is 'point-scoring over babies' deaths'. God forbid. People who support and advocate bf are aware of how carefully they need to tread and how much potential for hurt there is around discussing the risks of formula. But I do think that we do need to talk about these risks, both to inform individual women and because he more that is known about the risks, the more likely we are to be able in the mid- to long term to challenge the ff culture we have whereby formula is 'almost as good as bm these days', bf is 'only important for babies in the 3rd world' and hence bf is just not seen as important enough to really support and promote in any thought-out way, instead continuing to be viewed almost as a luxury and beyond a certain age of the baby as self-indulgent.

Thank you mabanana.

And FSID have been heavily criticised over their research methods involving babies.

Wow, some of you have very strong opinions about ff don't you? Did I hit a nerve?

Was that a boomerang?