1st time mum with 2 wk old feeling so confused about how to feed, pls help

[kookiegoddess]

Please bear with me, grateful if anyone has a minute to read and tell me if things will get better!

My baby was 6lb 3 oz (2.6kg) when born, lost about 15 % initially and then didn't poo on day 4-5 and MW said hmm she lost weight, not regained, not pooing, you need to express lots and top up with a bit of formula, milk doesn't appear to have come in (we'd had no yellow poo) and DD taking a long time to feed. MW also thought there may be a tongue tie, had this checked and no tongue tie - DD has no frenulum so tongue just doesn't come out very far. I did all those things, topping up with 20ml ff at each feed and then 1 full FF feed per 24 hrs. I did this but would have preferred to just demand feed to get milk flow up. Also had mum and DH saying it's ok to bottle feed, mum in partic putting pressure on saying that by only BF and not knowing how much she was getting that I was starving/dehydrating her which was very upsetting. Mum has left now and I'm doing boob only and topping up with EBM if she seems hungry still.

Gradually my milk has come in but my DD still seems to be feeding very slowly - 20 min on each boob initially and then I usually have to put her on each one again till she falls asleep - feeds can last up to 1 1/2 hours including waking her between boobs. She gets very sleepy on boob, but is defo drinking, then slows dowm and seems to doze off, comes off boob and then starts to cry for more just when I think she is full and ready to sleep!

Those of you with little babies/milk supply problems - how long was it before your baby's sucking got stronger?

Also, I never seem to express more than about 25/30ml per boob - is this normal at this stage? I am so worried that I'm going to be told that my supply is low and that I need to put her on the bottle. I express at least twice a day, just do it when I have the time so not at any fixed times. 15-20 min per boob. I can't seem to express enought to "get ahead" and have enough to top up with only EBM after feeds when needed. Is 40ml enough for a top up?

Also how long before her feeding patterns regulate a bit? last night she was feeding on and off for about 2 hrs and I was almost in tears from tiredness. This afternoon she was awake for nearly 3 hours - is this signs that she is "waking up" after 2 wk sleepiness?

How to keep her awake and stimulated to suck during feeds? She gets sleepy as soon as she goes on boob and and blowing on her face doesn't do anything, tickling feet makes her cry and come off, I'm scared to undress her as I always worry she'll get too cold, given the amount of time she's on the boob.

She's being weighed tmw. I think she's gained a bit as her hands look pudgier to me but I really don't want to be told to put her back on formula.

Does anyone have any thoughts on all this? I'm on my own for the first time today and just feeling overwhelmed with uncertainty and wanting to do what's best for her.

Have not read all thread and am no expert (have exclusively bfed 2 DDs to 6m and then continued till beyond 20m) but what you say in your second paragraph seems normal to me.
Hope it's getting easier, it will, dont worry!

Thinking on it again i really think you have to do less and just focus on 1 thing. Either bf or ff but not all this topping up, sterilising, expressing etc. I tried to do all this on top of a c-section recovery & with lots of early weeks A&E visits because of a problem my ds had. I ended up exhausted, got an infection, became ill, gave up bf at 3 wks and started bf again from scratch when i got better 5 weeks later which I really dont recommend altho we are now still bf (a bit) at almost 20mths. So to avoid getting ill take the pressure off and try to just only bf until established if u can.

"She has advised to alternate full ff and full bf to give my boobs rest- which is fine with me!"

Your MW is really undermining your BF She does not seem to understand the basic mechanics of it, which are that if you leave longer gaps between feeds 'to rest your boobs' you will produce LESS MILK and the strong likelihood is that you will not be BF for much longer. You might be happy with that but I thought you shoudl know.

If you want to carry on you would be better off getting RL support from someone who understands how BF works - you could ring one of the BF helplines or visit a baby cafe. Good luck whatever you decide

kookie - feel free to join us on the september 08 post-natal thread. we're a mix of first-time mums and those on their 2nd and 3rd (and even 4th!) babies all asking plenty of 'is this right?' questions sharing our experiences of those first overwhelming weeks.

kookie, maybe we haven't got the whole story, but that is seriously poor advice from your midwife. Alternating breast and formula is almost the worst - no exagerration - way to support continued breastfeeding I know it may be hard to hear because you are so longing for a break, but you need good information before you decide this is what you want to do.

At this early stage - and 2.5 weeks is a very early stage - reducing the amount of breastfeeding you are doing could lead to a reduction in your supply and then a disappearence. Alternating is effectively halving the amount of feeds, and this is how women end up stopping breastfeeding, believe me. I mean, if someone at 2.5 weeks posted here and said they wanted to stop breastfeeding, this would be the info they would get - to increase the formula to stretch out the time between breastfeeds.

You do need help and support and lots of loving care, and someone to ensure you eat well (for your sake - it will make zero diff. to your breastmilk)...not this peculiar and undermining stuff

I'm tellin' it like it is, to get the message across - sorry if it sounds harsh.

On the eating front, I would microwave a meal if you need to and just latch baby on and dig with the other hand. (I used to have many evening meals with dd2 attached to my boob ) Just cut the food up before you start feeding.

Are you certain that the baby is crying from hunger every time? If you can't hear any swallowing for a while then I would unlatch. I also had a bedtime putdown rule once dd2 got to 8wks which was 3 attempts to feed then that was it, dummy, rocking but not me, accompanied by me telling her no more, go to sleep, which she came to realise meant no more boob until you have slept. Obviously 2.5wks is too early, but if you can persevere with bf for another few weeks you will find it gets lots better. FF every other feed will mean you don't get a good supply and will probably end up stopping bf. I did this with dd1.
If you want to top up I would do 2230 for no more than a few nights to get some rest and demand feed the rest of the time. If you can express just at 9pm (for supply, not to feed, just freeze it) and get someone to give ff at 2230 she might sleep a little longer and help you recharge your batteries enough to carry on. I did this and then went back to bf without any ff for 6mths.
I would also try and get her to sleep every 1.5-2hrs from when she wakes up, however you can, she might be getting overtired rather than hungry- again, this is what happened with dd1. This led to a cycle of her feeding, falling asleep not satisfied, wake up again, feed again, trapped wind due to so many feedings, crying?hungry, feed again, tired, crying?hungry, feed again and totally unsettled.

whoops shd have explained that i only alternated bf and ff for a day and a night and am back on bf with top ups if required. MW suggested this too give me a little rest as I was v tired.

those who say bf only, what am i supposed to do when she's bfed for one hour, it's 3.30am, my boobs are stinging and she's still crying and rooting?? cry with her thru the pain for another 30 min?

Swaddle her, let her cry with you cuddling her and relax, don't get worked up because she is crying as it is only communication- nothing personal iyswim. If you pat her bottom rythmically it sometimes sends them to sleep. Swaddling makes them feel secure and because her arms will be wrapped the startle reflex (where they fling their arms out to the sides) will be restrained and she is less likely to wake up when you put her down. HTH

You can also give her to someone else to hold and take a walk or a bath.

Your MW is talkin through her arse.
That will have your supply plunging faster than the FTSE.

kookie I know I will get flame grilled, but try a dummy, if it is so bad you can't keep her on you. You do have to set some limits IME or they will suck continuously for comfort. From my own experience I presumed any nosing into my boob was hunger and rooting, with dd2 I learned that rooting meant comfort and actual head bobbing meant feed me now. My gut instinct here is that she needs sleep rather than her being hungry- overtired. Will she go to sleep if you take her for a walk in the pram?

Haven't seen the study referred to by BBC, but it is either a crap study, or very crap reporting!

Kookie,

"She has advised to alternate full ff and full bf to give my boobs rest- which is fine with me!"

Do NOT do htis if you want to continue to bf at all. Formula will fill her up and make her sleep longer, but these long breaks between breastfeeds will tell your body that milk isn't needed and your milk supply will start to decrease.

I am concerned about what you said about her frenulum, is her tongue stuck to the bottom of her mouth? Can she stick it out and when she cries does it curl up towards the roof of her mouth? If her tongue is stuck to the bottom of her mouth, and she can't stick it out and it doesn't curl up when she cries then she does have a tongue-tie. If you got it snipped she would feed much more effectively and you'd find the soreness would go and things would get so much better.

I'd ignore the advice of your MW, she seems to know nothing about bf. Your boobs need stimulation, not a break, and your baby does not need formula if she has gained weight in the last week.

Phone the [[http://www.abm.me.uk/ ABM] or one of the other helplines and they will be much more supportive and helpful.

Oh, I almost forgot, topping up with anything with a bottle (even ebm) will confuse her latch, which will also make for inefficient feeding and sore nipples. Try to just feed her on demand, direct from the boob.

And don't give her a dummy.

Kookie I don't say BF only - it's completely your choice - but your MW doesn't seem like a very reliable person to get BF advice from. Have you spoken to someone who does know about BF and is an expert - a BF counsellor? Because hopefully they would be able to give you some idea of whether your DD was latched on well and feeding effectively so that your nipples stand the best chance of survival!

As for what to do at 3.30am - well, everything is crap at that time of the morning Moondog's suggestions are good. FWIW my son was bottle fed but did just the same.

I found bowls of museli very easy and you get milk and it's quite filling and takes about 30 seconds to prepare!

Could you not juts breastfeed? Anyone advising you on breastfeeding woudl say ditch all expressing which is a completely huge nuisance (I've breastfed 5 including twins) and just feed yourself and keep at it. Small babies often do feed every 2 or 3 hours night and day sometimes for an hour at a time. If they're feeding they are getting fed from you and I would also make sure you drink enough too. I got really really thirsty when breastfeeding. With baby 1 I used to drink a pint of chocolate milk with each feed which is not good for you, loads of sugar etc but certainly a pint of water would be good. No bottles. no dummies. No cow's milk.

Greenmonkies above is right. Or hire a breastfeeding counsellor - my sister in law did after breastfeeding didn't work with baby 1 and with baby 2 this counsellor was briliant and the baby fed until nearly 2.

Kookie

'I was feeding on and off for about 5 hours last night.'

Aren't we all (DD now 4 weeks).

Please don't listen to anymore nonsense from your mw. Your lo may not be satisfied YET because your supply need to catch up, hence the feeding frenzy to stimulate more milk. If you FF, then you'll not be able to meet the demands. The result will be more and more ff consumption relative to bm, and eventually an end to bfing.

I KNOW it is tough, TOUGH is normal.

Despite his long hours it sounds like you need more support from your DP. Can you pass baby to him the minute he gets home, express and then go to bed for 3 hours consecutive-ish sleep, with him ebm feeding and then bringing in lo just for a feed then taking lo away after. You can take over after some kip and do the night shift!?

pmsl at Mytether's gut instinct about someone elses child through t internet!

Agree with Moonlight. Also often better not to allow mothers around you until baby is 3 months and things are established. Ban her from mentioning feeding and ration the mount of time she spends with you as it sounds like she's a negative influence which is a pity. My own mother was very pro and was one of the first NCT members in the 60s

kookie, would you be panicking about all of this weight/topping up business if you were just lookig at the baby? do you think she's failing? 200g sounds like a cracking weight gain to me, tbh.

think she may be having her 3 wk growth spurt now. feeding lots on and off yesterday and the same again this morning, tho last night actually went ok, think she was just exhausted - she only fed for 1 hour last night at 2.30 and then went down and I was able to bf on and off lying down thru till 8am when I sat up and gave her a proper feed session. she has been feeding lots on and off again this am and in the end gave her 2 oz ff so I could have a shower (she wasn't having the dummy, I have no problem with dummies, have used since birth, I'm not a martyr to motherhood!)

mytether interesting about the bobbing vs rooting. I assume she's hungry if she's head butting my shoulder and craning her neck round with her mouth wide open. But am trying to look for signs that she's not rooting for comfort sucking as you say...

At what age does "snacking" become an issue if I'm BF on demand and that seems quite often at the mo? Trying not to get into bad habits but already she is sleeping in our bed every night, and occasionally falling asleep with a dummy (generally so I/we can eat)...

Hubby really cannot help much at the mo as his work is largely dictated by what's happening in the news at the mo and he is incredibly stressed right now. He may not have have a job in a month. He's doing the best he can and I don't feel I can ask much more because he's knackered too.

Kokie

It's not about being a martyr, it's about getting breastfeeding established.

Using a dummy from birth can have a very negative effect on breastfeeding, from reduced milk supply to nipple confusion. I have supported several mothers through breastfeeding difficulties, similar to yours, the cause of which were directly related to early dummy/pacifier use. Breastfeeding support organisations don't recommend they are avoided because they want to chain you to your baby, but because they can be the cause of serious breastfeeding difficulties. If you really do want to breastfeed successfully you need to seriously consider getting rid of the dummy. Learn to eat one handed or eat in shifts as you and DH take it in turns to hold DD, carry her in a sling so that she is close (and you can nurse hands free in a sling too) and try to stop the bottles of ff (top-ups) and dummy use.

I do know how hard it is, the first weeks are really intense, but they don't last forever, and if you can stick it out now you will avoid all the hassle, expense and health risks of formula feeding.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with snacking and comfort sucking, it helps to establish your milk supply. Any rooting should be met by nursing, be it head-bobbing or even just face pulling or mouthing and hand waving. Crying is the last feeding cue, the basic rule of thumb with a baby of this age is if they stir/fuss/wake up, offer them a boob. I'm afraid I agree with Moonlight about MyTethers gut instinct, as it does not follow the advice of all the breastfeeding support organisations.

nipple confusion

Don't use dummies, expressing or bottles. They just lead to more work for you.

I did find with babies 2 - 5 I had a better idea than with 1 over when they were hungry and when they were tired, to distinguish the cries etc and when to leave it for 10 mins so I could just recover myself, when it needed to suck for comfort, when it wasn't hungry and just needed to be put in the sling and taken for a walk or in the sling whilst I vaccuumed the floor which often gets them quiet.

GM's advice is right too. But if you get too exhausted and the baby's just fed and you want a break just take it out on a walk or in a sling and if it's just tired and not really hungry it will settle and you'll have some exercise and a break from constant feeding. If it's really hungry you'll soon know about it.

Kookie, just breastfeed your baby when she seems to want to be close to you and is fussing even mildly in any way - please don't worry about the distinction between bobbing and rooting or whatever...different babies have different ways of behaving and communicating, and what one mother finds suits her baby can't be generalised to others.

Keep life as simple as possible - feed without expressing, and without timing and without counting or clock watching