Still being subjected to the cow and gate ad.

[LookingForwardToSummer]

Grrrrr. It's so annoying! Is there nothing we can do?

"While you are dismissive of anecdotal evidence that is all the evidence that most people have to go on"

No it's not. There is plenty of published research evidence on this subject. People just ignore it or dismiss it because it makes them feel uncomfortable with their choices. I very much doubt they'd ignore similar evidence of harm and risk if it was attached to anything else we feed our children.

"I don't know of one single baby who has been ill or died as a result of being ff"

What, you mean of all the children you know, not one has ever had call to go to a doctor or have a course of antibiotics? If they've EVER had an episode of illness there is a chance that breastfeeding could have prevented that illness. But of course you wouldn't know. And as you can't see inside them you won't know what impact ff has had on their arteries or blood pressure, or on their levels of body fat or IQ.

Honestly - I find it bizarre that you think it's logical that you WOULD be able to perceive the impact of feeding on the health of the individual child. I mean - you can't tell which children in the playground are going home and eating chips every day can you? Did you see that child on TV (on 'my child won't eat), who's lived for 8 years on rice crispies, crisps and chocolate and nothing else? Skin like a peach, shiny hair, bright and alert. But paediatricians were seriously worried about the impact of her diet on her health.

"However, there doesn't appear to be overwhelming evidence, at the moment, that ff is as damaging as some people make out"

Actually there is good quality, large scale research evidence that ff babies have many times the rate of hospital admissions for gastro-enteritis and respitory disease as exclusively breastfed babies. This evidence underpins the government recommmendations on exclusive breastfeeding for six months. What more do you want?

"It made no difference to how I decided to feed my baby."

You didn't make your decision in a cultural vacuum. Everything we see and hear about this subject will subtly change the way we feel about it, consciously or unconsciously. That's how advertising works. It doesn't work by logically persuading you with facts and evidence. It works at an emotional and social level to change the way we feel about products.

"I think one of the things that does undermine some women bf-ing is the fact that ff-ing mothers seem to be able to return to their pre-baby activities. It's difficult if your friends are going out and you can't because you can't leave your baby. It isn't just about advertising and formula companies"

No - and nobody is saying it's 'just' about advertising, there are many, many different factors that feed into this.

But ironically bf mothers are MORE likely to return to work than ff mums, and are more likely to study too. All the bf mums I know have normal lives: they work, they go out and socialise, they care for other children. It's only when your baby is VERY tiny and you are building up your milk supply that it's a challenge to spend a few hours away from your baby. But then you'd have to ask yourself why a woman would make going out and socialising a higher priority than protecting her tiny baby's health, when her child is under six weeks old.

"I very much doubt they'd ignore similar evidence of harm and risk if it was attached to anything else we feed our children."

Don't a lot of people do that all the time? We are inundated with how this food is bad for you and that food is bad for you. It gets to the point where it's possible to start doubting what you are being told. Especially when the advice or recommendations seem to change so often.

"If they've EVER had an episode of illness there is a chance that breastfeeding could have prevented that illness.

There is also a chance that it had nothing to do with not bf-ing.

"You didn't make your decision in a cultural vacuum."

No I didn't. But despite being surrounded by advertising, by friends who questioned why I didn't ff, I still bf my babies.

As for going back to work. It was going back to work that made me decide to switch to formula for my first 3 babies.
With the next 6, I stayed home and became sahm. Which is what I would have preferred to have done with the other 3.
I have a friend who refused to bf because she wanted to go out with her dh every week (including the week she gave birth) as they always had done. She didn't want to have to worry about having an alcoholic drink or not being there when her baby needed feeding. Now you might judge her for that, but that was their decision. The children don't seem to have suffered for that at all so far, and the eldest is in her late teens now.

I'm not saying that I wholly agree with any of this but this is the viewpoint of a quite a few people I've spoken to over the years.

If the advert bothers you, turn it over.

I turn over every time a Cilit Bang ad comes on. Why? Because it pisses me off...i suggest you do the same and stop being so over the top.

People seem het up about the fact that the babies shown in the ads are smiling and looking happy. So what?

Johnson's ads always show smiley babies, even though their products are loaded with chemicals, nappy ads show smiley babies even though their product is environmentally damaging...advertising isn't real life and never will be.

"Don't a lot of people do that all the time? We are inundated with how this food is bad for you and that food is bad for you. It gets to the point where it's possible to start doubting what you are being told. Especially when the advice or recommendations seem to change so often"

Yes, to a certain extent I agree that the sheer volume of nutritional research and ever changing recommendations do quite a lot to obscure the importance of the recommendations on infant feeding.

It's unfortunate though that when (and if) mothers are receiving education on this antenatally that someone doesn't point out the crucial difference between the advice on infant feeding and the advice on later childhood nutrition: that breastmilk or formula will be a child's sole food for up to six months (and possibly one brand of formula), during that baby's period of most rapid growth and especial vulnerability, and that therefore this decision deserves serious thought and research.

Someone also needs to point out that ALL the main health bodies in the world are in agreement about the importance of breastmilk for babies - the WHO, UNICEF, the NHS, the Royal College of Paediatrics, the American College of Paediatrics - you name it.

"There is also a chance that it had nothing to do with not bf-ing"

Well of course. Nobody is denying this. It's the argument tobacco companies have used for decades. Non smokers also get lung cancer. Human health and illness is so complex that you will never be prove a direct connection between lack of breastfeeding a particular individual's illness. That's why we have to turn to research evidence based on population studies.

"No I didn't. But despite being surrounded by advertising, by friends who questioned why I didn't ff, I still bf my babies."

And so do the majority of women. But then most also mixed feed and wean their babies from the breast well before the baby is ready to stop breastfeeding. I personally feel that women wouldn't be so open to mixed feeding or to stopping breastfeeding early if formula wasn't so heavily promoted and normalised.

"I have a friend who refused to bf because she wanted to go out with her dh every week (including the week she gave birth) as they always had done. She didn't want to have to worry about having an alcoholic drink or not being there when her baby needed feeding. Now you might judge her for that, but that was their decision"

Nobody would deny anyone the right to decide how to feed their own children. But this discussion is about the commercial pressures that shape people's feelings about artificial feeding not about the right of the individual to make a choice.

"The children don't seem to have suffered for that at all so far, and the eldest is in her late teens now. "

But as we've already pointed out, absence of proof of harm is not proof of absence of harm.

"I'm not saying that I wholly agree with any of this but this is the viewpoint of a quite a few people I've spoken to over the years."

Yes - I agree. And the status quo will be maintained because most people are not brave enough or confident enough of the facts to challenge muddle headed thinking on the health issues when it crops up in discussion, anywhere it seems other than on mumsnet (god bless mumsnet icon).

9 out of 10 cases of lung cancer are caused by smoking-fact.

9 out of 10 cases of childhood illnesses are NOT being attributed to ffeeding. Many breast fed babies and children get the same bugs that formula fed children get

The number of children admitted to hospital with gastro-enteritis is very small so quit with the scaremongering it's getting boring.

In my town the huge local school and 2 pre-schools have just been closed for 2 days due to an outbreak of gastro-enteritis which has swept through the entire town. Guess what not a single child has been hospitalised!!!! Guess what my 3 formula fed children didn't get it!!!!!! Guess what dp who was breast fed until 2 did get it!!!!!!!!!

Until all the ills you keep banging on about can be solely attributed to ffeeding in the same way that smoking is linked to lung cancer and kills people in the same way as smoking does us formula feeding mums will read the literature given to us from the gov and make our own choices.

Yes breast feeding is preferable but formula feeding is a good substitute and is preferable for many mums for many different reasons.

HONESTLY!!!

Am totally pro-bf as are a very big portion of the mn community but reeeeeaaally think we can get a bit carried away with all this stuff.

The ONLY time I have ever even thought about whether I have actually watched a C & G ad is now, on reading this thread.

We are adults, we can make informed decisions, we understand that adverts are just that, attempts to persuade us to buy products. Otherwise there would be a lot more large-gutted men in beer adverts.

Now if we're really talking about ads that should be banned for public health reasons I would vote for the Halifax ones anyday. I have to turn over as violent urges overwhelm me...

"9 out of 10 cases of lung cancer are caused by smoking-fact.

9 out of 10 cases of childhood illnesses are NOT being attributed to ffeeding. Many breast fed babies and children get the same bugs that formula fed children get"

You know MilaMae, given the tone and the content of your other posts it doesn't surprise me one bit that you've jumped on an analogy I used to make a point about cause and effect, and tried to suggest that I'm making a direct comparison between the rates of illness attributed to both cigarette smoking and artificial feeding.

"The number of children admitted to hospital with gastro-enteritis is very small so quit with the scaremongering it's getting boring"

According to the Royal College of Midwives the additional gastric illness in babies costs the NHS approximately £50 million quid a year. So not that insignificant really is it?

In any case, we're not just talking about gastric illness are we? We're talking about increased rates of SIDS, diabetes, ear infections, urinary infections, asthma, excema, respitory infections..... I could go on. You might think these things are irrelevant, but I'm sure the parents of the children who get them don't.

"n my town the huge local school and 2 pre-schools have just been closed for 2 days due to an outbreak of gastro-enteritis which has swept through the entire town. Guess what not a single child has been hospitalised!!!! Guess what my 3 formula fed children didn't get it!!!!!! Guess what dp who was breast fed until 2 did get it!!!!!!!!!"

The rates of hospitalisation are for children under six months. The largest difference is seen between children who are exclusively breastfed and those who are either mixed fed or exclusively ff. According to the largest study, mixed fed babies under six months get sick with this almost as often as fully ff babies. Your dp is over 12 months I take it? Then the research isn't relevant to him.

By the way - how do you know that no babies in your entire town have been very ill with this gastric bug? Do you have a record of all the doctor's appointments and hospital admissions in your area?

"Until all the ills you keep banging on about can be solely attributed to ffeeding in the same way that smoking is linked to lung cancer and kills people in the same way as smoking does us formula feeding mums will read the literature given to us from the gov and make our own choices"

Ummm, not quite sure what point you're making here.

I'm totally in favour of mums reading the literature and making up their own minds on this.

It's just a shame that at the moment so few mums do seem to read the literature before making a choice. Or seem to understand what it's saying and why.

"and formula is preferable for many mums for many different reasons"

yes - true. But it'd never be the preferred choice of babies though, would it?

But then, their needs for the safest and healthiest food at the most vulnerable time in their lives do often come second to our need for convenience.

I think you're just being insulting now!!!!!!!

There are many,many mothers who ffeed and convenience doesn't even come into it.

Many of us ffeed because we hate being in pain, we want to enjoy our babies and not dread every feed, we simply can't do it however hard we try, it makes us miserable the list is endless.

My babies blossomed when I switched to formula as I did, I finally became the mother I wanted to be-a happy pain free one.They were no longer hungry and ill so I'm afraid you're wrong, for many babies it would be the preferred choice.

i've only skimmed the thread but just wanted to pick up on a few points:

Chunky - do you really think that a sleep-deprived, emotionally distraught new mother is going to make an informed choice As An Adult? No. She's going to make the choice based on which advert she remembers the best, and which advert made her feel good. Formula advert is the most insidious thing out there - and yes, it really is that insidious. From the SMA one which made spurious claims about a follow-on milk which could miraculously make a new father get up to make night time feeds and stand up to his mother for you () to the Aptamil using breastfeeding to promote their own - inferior - product.

I - and many, many others - complained bitterly about the SMA advert to the ASA. At the time there was discussion on whether formula advertising should be banned across the board. It wasn't. Adverts - misleading, borderline legal adverts, such as this one - continue to be aired. The ASA will do nothing about it.

For those of you who said, "Where's the advertising for breastmilk?" Well, precisely. Where is the advertising for breastmilk? Let's not forget that next to the formula companies' budgets for advertising, the DoH's budget will look like very small change indeed.

If we can't ban formula advertising can we at least get more support for new mothers who want to breastfeed? Can we at least raise awareness, and protect mothers who wish to nurse their babies in public? No, apparently we can't.

Every child matters, Mr Brown. Indeed...

i am a sleep deprived, emotionally distraught new mother. i think you are one of the lovely people, subarban, who have posted replies on my very wobbles that have helped me thru it all.

and my (personal) feeling is that i can't tell one ad from the next these days, it just doesn't penetrate the fuzz.

but sorry if i seemed flippant and if these ads really could mislead. i guess i was just looking at it from a personal pov.

and the typos are proof of my new mother status

LOL chunky. Bless ya - new motherhood is very difficult.

The trouble is that people watch the ads, they see cute babies laughing, it makes them feel good (it does - it's just a physiological response, it makes us feel warm and gooey) they then go to the 24hr supermarket at 3am (or they send their dp/h) and what are they thinking? Are they thinking, "I know, I'll pick the one I read all that research on, the one with the......oh wait, I don't know what's in it, actually do i?"

Now - the biggest thing is obviously price. But when you take price out of the equation (and let's face it - aren't they pretty much all the same price anyway?) what are you going to remember? Even if it's not conscious, you'll remember the warm fuzzy feeling you got when watching the C&G advert. Or you'll remember the one you saw last. Either way, advertising does not help you make an informed decision about which formula brand to choose. Which is why it should be banned, and clear concise information - Government and DoH information, by preference - should take its place.

SERIOUSLY AGAIN?

How many times are we going to have this thread???

How many times are we going to have ignorant people with their own hang-ups about other people breastfeeding failing to see that this is a real political issue?

Or is it just me?

YBND

Your point?

That's like saying, "For love of God when will we stop discussing what goes on in Parliament?" (or insert big issue here)

Sorry for giving a shit.

I don't have anything against the cause, infact I was involved in one of these threads before and it made me see the point of what they were trying to say so I agree with you.

All I'm saying is that I don't see why everytime an ad is shown there is a big uproar about it on here, if you want to make a difference write to an MP or other important type person.

"hangups about other people breast feeding"

Errrrr why would anybody have a hangup about anybody else breastfeeding

Really not interested in how others choose to feed their babies, just don't like some of the rather nasty anti-formula feeding posts on here.

I don't think anybody can be described as ignorant just for having a different opinion to the op.

Pro-BF is almost always interpreted by formula feeders as anti-FF because they do, I think, have issues about their own lack of support in developing their BF. And so, perhaps, they project their bad feelings onto this issue because it upsets them, even if they're not conscious of it.

The Cow and Gate ad is shocking in its undermining of BF and its direct aggressive challenge. YBND, point taken: I did complain to the ASA. I received a bureaucratic 'we have received your email' reply and nothing else yet.

Mila, 'I'm entitled to my opinion however shit it is' is the last defence of the ill-informed.

It doesn't matter about how any of us feed our children...as long as we do so as far as I'm concerned! Only thing I have a problem with is as usual at some point in this rather repetitive thread the FFers are again being slammed by the BFers and vice versa.

No, it DOES matter how any of us feed our children. Defending a status quo on the grounds of indiviual choice of mothers or parents is not adequate. Feeding is a public health issue. In a civilised progressive society, we have a responsibility to provide structures that enable good health and prevent poor practice.

Formula is an alternative to BF which is great when feeding isn't working. But it is naive to suggest a society shouldn't seek to promote things that are best for its children.

I haven't slammed any breast feeder.

My opinion is not shit.

WILF- I think either I put my point across wrong or you took it the wrong way.

I think ultimately it is down to personal choice whether to BF/FF, of course we should promote BF as much as we can, and yes I possibly do involve my own feelings in this, in my opinion though I don't see the problem with having one or two ads as long as they are done in an informative manner! Too show a bit of support to those who can't or choose not to BF. My only problem with these ads is that they are promoting a follow on milk for 6months up yet they show a child of at the most 4months being FF.

Wilself I am very happy with my feeding choice, my babies were very happy with my feeding choice, you obviously are not. I venture to suggest you are the one with hang ups regarding other people's feeding choices.

Your aggression certainly indicates that to be the case.

Mila- I wasn't aiming that at you , I just meant it in general it turns into a war of who feeds which way on these threads always does have been at the centre of it before isn't nice when your opinion is overlooked and it's just disrespectful to say someones opinion is shit