Finding this so, so hard - almost regret starting breastfeeding

[Piccalilli2]

I was unable to bf dd1 and the only thing I wanted for dd2 was to establish bf. It has been really hard (excruciating pain for the first 5 weeks) but it's going OK now and she's loving it and gaining weight brilliantly...but I'm so fed up and almost wishing I'd never started and put her straight on the bottle. She's 9 wks, still feeding every 2 hrs then cluster feeding from 7 til 10 every night (not off the boob for all that time) then up again at 1, 3, 5, 6....the nights are hard but it's the evening cluster feeding that's really getting to me, I really really need a break.

Rosemary - Is it your opinion then that there is an endless supply of milk connected to each breast?

Agree with Cote that while cluster feeding is totally normal it does not in fact mean feeding for three hours solid, it simply means that feeds are more regular than usual.
At 9 weeks with feeding patterns like this I am sure I did use a dummy with both my sons, they both had dummies after a few weeks, I never sat and fed for 3 solid hours. Also agree with F&Z that getting out of the house with baby (in a sling or pram) (and DP too) is a good way of breaking up the evening, babies this age will often go a bit longer between feeds if they are out and about.

And Cote breasts do not "run out" of milk, the more a baby suckles the more milk is produced, however a 3 hour feeding session is not much fun for the mother.

Yes, actually

Breasts produce milk on demand. You don't need to stop between feeds so they can fill up. In fact, doing this may actually reduce your milk supply because when milk builds up in the breasts a hormone signals the body to reduce production in a negative feedback loop.

As a baby feeds the breasts produce milk - true, there will be a quantity of readily accessible milk at the start of a feed if the baby has not fed for a period of time, but even when this reservoir is drained the breast goes on making more in response to the stimulus of feeding.

Again, I refer you to Kellymom for an excellent description of the physiology involved.

Yes, breastmilk gets replenished, but not as fast as baby drinks it.

This is quite obvious, so I can only guess that I wasn't as clear in first post.

Cote as I understand it, more milk is produced as the baby feeds so you never run out, nor do you need to leave time for your breasts to "fill up" again. Loads of info on kellymom here
www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/milkproduction.html

Ds4 has a dummy and I do find that it helps in that I can eat my dinner or drive the car without endless bawling ( baby, not me!)
I think over-use might be detrimental but I can tell when he wants food in that he sucks very hard on the dummy and then gets agitated and cries so I know it's not enough and that he needs the breast.

From that page on KellyMom:

"Offer both sides at each nursing; wait until baby is finished with the first side before offering the second. Switch nursing may be helpful if baby is not draining the breast well."

It sounds to me like this Kelly Mom person is saying the same thing. Baby drains and finishes one breast, then the other. That means milk isn't instantly replenished as baby feeds.

If it were, breasts would not go soft after breastfeeding (since new milk would instantly replace what baby takes) and there would be no need to change breasts. There would also be no need to store milk in the breast prior to a feed, and yet that is exactly what the body does.

I love pannacotta, by the way

Cote, your assertion in your second to last post is actually completely wrong.

This should explain why:
Do breasts need time to refill?
Many people mistakenly think of a mother's milk supply as being like "flesh-covered bottles" that are completely emptied and then need time to refill before baby nurses again. This is simply not how we understand milk production to function.

First of all, milk is being produced at all times, so the breast is never empty. Research has shown that babies do not take all the milk available from the breast - the amount that baby drinks depends upon his appetite. The amount of milk removed from the breast varies from feed to feed, but averages around 75-80% of the available milk.

Trying to completely empty a breast is like trying to empty a river -- it's impossible, since more milk will keep flowing in while milk is being removed.
Research also tells us that the emptier the breast, the faster the breast makes milk. So when baby removes a large percentage of milk from the breast, milk production will speed up in response.

Rather than thinking of nursing or pumping as "pouring milk out of a container" think of it as flipping on the "high speed production" switch!

Yet another analogy: Imagine you are using a straw to drink from a glass of water. As you drink, a friend is very slowly pouring water into your glass. The emptier the glass, the faster your friend pours the water. Would you be able to drink all the water in your glass?

Waiting a set amount of time to nurse your baby (under the mistaken belief that breasts need time to "refill") is actually counterproductive. Consistently delaying nursing will lead to decreased milk supply over time because milk production slows when milk accumulates in the breast.

(I've copied and pasted it from Kellymom.com because it has research based evidence and very highly qualified lactation experts writing it)

The link Pannacotta gave you also explains why breasts feel 'full' or 'empty'.

Hope that clears up some of your confusion.

Glad you posted that Olihan, had wanted to respond to Cote, but too tired to be literate.

It's a pleasure, couldn't let that kind of misconception go! Thank goodness for the mine of (excellent) info that is Kellymom, eh?

BTW, I lurrrrrrrrve Pannacotta, too - my MIL makes fab ones!

I agree with Cote. Re: the dummy.

I didn't find that having a dummy between feeds in the evening effected dd or ds establishing or continuing breast feeding long-term. If the OP feels that she needs a break, and that her dd is no longer hungry or thirsty, then letting her have a snooze with a dummy downstairs before bedtime, and more feeds (cluster feeding) wouldn't be the end of the world and may provide welcome relief.

DD was colicky, and the dummy was an absolute life-saver. DS wasn't, but having a dummy provided a means of comfort when he was no longer feeding and was broadly asleep on the breast.

Oh yes, the dummy issue, knew there was something else I wanted to add [sieve-like brain]. I found that ds2 started getting very cross on the breast when he was comfort sucking and stimulated a let down. If he didn't want the milk then he'd start to cry and pull off. That was the point when we introduced a dummy.

What lackaDAISYcal suggested re. offering your (or better still, dh/dp's) finger would be a good measure as to how much she is actually feeding and how much is just comfort sucking.

I could have written the OP!

My DD is 7 weeks and following the same pattern. I just go with the flow and c0-sleep most of the night to retain some sanity.

Agree with Cote on dummy. Worked well with DS1. But DD won't have it. She screws her face and spits it out immediately.
So back to square one!

I just indulge. This will not last forever and when she's past this stage I know I will miss those precious moments!!

As far as I can remember, it gets better when they hit the 5 or 6 kg mark as they take more milk and thus more time to digest + around that time which is about 4 months they should also be more emotionally secure to self soothe without being against your bosom.

In the meantime, trying some sort of self soothing routines just helps prepare the stage for that time. Make her cot snug around her & keep her warm when sleeping to recreate the closeness of your breast.

During the day ( too difficult to keep up at night) try and pat her in the cot and let her cry for a few seconds then cuddle and back in cot for more patting and shushing. This is some sort of control crying but we are only talking 30 seconds. Build up on that if you can. surrender and try again in a few weeks if it makes her or you miserable.

Don't pick her up at the first whimper as often they make those funny noise, even cry and get back to deep sleep if we do not disturb them.

I fully sympathise. Remember this is just a stage....and there will be other challenges

So "KellyMom" contradicts herself.

First she says baby should be finished with one breast, drain it, then go onto the other breast.

Then she says that would be 'impossible', like "emptying a river".

And that is supposed to clear my 'confusion' although I am not the one with contradicting statements.

Just to clarify: I am not confused, your breastfeeding hero "KellyMom" is, as she is obviously contradicting herself.

Perhaps it would help to link some of her claims to experiments, research, scientific websites, etc to back them up.

Cote, if you'd care to read my earlier link it would all be explained to you. Milk is made continually. A baby may finish one breast (ie pull off because the period of rapid flowing milk is over) and move to the other one to start again without the breast being empty. There's no such thing as an empty breast.

I think the advice about draining one breast is given as advice as the fat content of the milk rises as a baby feeds longer therefore filling them up more. Obviously as the breast is stimulated through sucking then a feedback loop kicks in and your body starts producing milk, hence the advice not to substitute with formula as if the baby is not stimulating the breast then it will not produce milk.

Some babies do like to suck alot but introducing a dummy can affect breastfeeding aswell.

This is a really hard stage but once past this stage everything will become easier.

Re the empty breast thing, I always imagined it as a jug being filled by a slow running tap. You could empty it by drinking it with a straw but it would never be truly empty since it is continually refilling.

good analogy soupy

I have fed DD when she woke up 5 minutes after I had expressed. I thought I had squeezed them dry but she sucked for a minute and then it was flowing and her avidly gulping.

Cote maybe you could accept some nuance?
By finishing the feed on one breast /draining we usually refer to making sure we get the baby to suck as much as possible in one sitting to get the hindmilk.

The lady who set up the Kellymom website is actually a lactation consultant and the website is a well established reference among parents and lactation professionals.

I thought about a toilet cistern analogy, your toilet cistern always has water in it, when flushed more water is let into it but if left unflushed it eventually evaporates but didn't write it because toilets aren't that seducive are they? Soupdragons is much better.

I agree with the jug filling with slow tap analogy.

Coming back to we agree that there is no such thing as "feeding for three hours". After a while (when breast is 'drained') baby will get so little that he won't in fact be 'feeding' but will be there for the comfort of sucking. That is, using mum in place of a dummy.

Which is fine, if mum doesn't mind it. OP does, and hence my recommendation that she try a dummy in between the evening feeds.

hi picallili, I came on this topic to post and read your thread instead. I am bf twin girls who are 17 weeks old (but 8 weeks corrected). I can related to your baby's feeding patterns and have been advise by both NCT bf counsellors (2) and neonatal nurses from SPBU (2) that this is all completely normal. my girls cluster feed in the way you describe (combo of comfort sucking and actual feeding - but constant) until about 8PM (from 2PM!) when my parnter and I give them a bottle each. they only get the one formula feed a day. I express at this point and settle the babies into a sleeptime 'routine'. I have done this (reluctantly at first) since 9 weeks and it hasn't adversely affected the other feeds and I feel no closer to going on bottles with them. recently I introduced dummies post nightime bottle and they suck themselves to sleep at night.

in the last week they have, very suddnely, started going for hours between feeds and feeding efficiently for shorter times. Its totally freaking me out! but I am assured that this happens around this time... perhaps others can comment on this.

Keep on with it my love, if I can do it - you can.

Also want to echo co-sleeping. I was freaked by it at first and only did it when the morning light came in. Now I do it all the time and its changed everything for the good. Its your decision, but I felt happier after reading in What to Expect the First Year - that bf women have a hormone which makes it very hard to smother their babies as we are tuned into the babies movement and they into us. Unless you are very overweight or drunk/drugged of course. I just make my partner aware of the babies in the bed and we are doing well so far.

I feed my babies ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL night most nights, but it is getting better as they get better at extracting the milk and I get better at producing it.

Sorry this is so long!

congratulations northernkiwi!
It's a lovely post, you make it sound so easy!

My DD is also 8 weeks and I can certainly echo the improvement in suckling efficiency and longer naps, albeit in the early evening and mornings for the latter.
So I also continue co-sleeping and my energy levels are better for it. I only crash once or twice a week for daytime naps now.

Hang in there Picadilli, it will only improve.