9 weeks old - breast aversion - loosing my mind

[MarlaSinger2017]

Hi All,
I think I just need some advice/direction how to manage breast aversion/reflux/upset tummy?

I have 9 weeks old DD, we had our struggles to start off breastfeeding as her latch was very painful in the beginning and I have fast let down (possibly oversupply as well, can’t tell). It’s not like it was all perfect after 9 weeks, but we were managing.

She’s just had her jabs and rotavirus vaccine last week and since then breastfeeding is an utter nightmare.
First 3 days after vaccinations she’d only feed when asleep or drowsy, and not that often as I guess she didn’t have much appetite, which I expected to happen.

But we’re reaching day 7 and there’s not much improvement, if not getting worse as she’s definitely hungry, but just won’t take a breast when awake at all or she’s sucking until let down and then stops feeding.
She only eats when asleep or drowsy during the day, or being tricked with dummy first and then I just swap that for the boob.
She won’t feed in laid back or cross cradle position at all, she’s arching her back and pulling away (new skills with her discovering her hands).
She feeds side lying mainly, but it’s also quite acrobatic as she won’t be on her side initially, but on her back with only tilted head. I have a blanket under her that I wrap around with her when she starts sucking.
Her latch went downhill and probably not helping if she has reflux/upset tummy, but if I try to re-latch - that’s the end of feeding.

For comfort or naps - I just give her dummy and she seems ok with it…

She seems to be making just enough wet/dirty nappies, and she’s happy for her play time between naps or bath time.
She does get upset to be kept upright after feeds for burping and prefers lying on her back - which makes me think it’s not reflux?

This new feeding routine is just exhausting and worrying as it doesn’t feel right and neither of us is enjoying it ☹️

Any advice/ideas how to help her?

The Rotavirus vaccine is awful, made my son so poorly, and really exacerbated his reflux and it took a good 2 weeks to get over it. You just have to ride it out.

Try a bottle? Sounds miserable all round

Is he snuffly, having trouble breathing through the nose?

Thanks for your replies.

@BoyFTM645 how did he take a second dose?
I’m not sure she has reflux - she’s happy on her back, in bed or pram, she rarely spits up or spill milk, she vomited with curd-like milk only few times - each after being hold upright for burping that didn’t come on time.

@Fends how would that help? Do you mean to express breast milk and feed from the bottle?
We tried to spoon feed her to encourage taking breast and she seems ok with milk itself.
I guess the flow would be more steady and slower from the bottle?

@justasking111 She is quite congested, but she was born that way - snorting the minute she wanted milk. She has some nose buggers, but only after milk came through her nose or she choked on boob. Other than that - her breathing is ok.
She does sneeze a lot and have frequent hiccups - but hearing her gulping on milk, I’m not surprised.

You’re doing great. My first was picky and refused my right breast, so I had to pump that side. I kept persevering and we finally got past it at 12 weeks. It’s not easy, that’s for sure.

@CowTown thanks for good words, any reason you suspected of why he didn’t take it?
And what do you think changed at 12 weeks?

We have another set of jabs at 12 weeks… dreading it already

I have no idea what changed, nor do I know why she refused. She just accepted it one day. Very strange.

I even had her checked for an ear infection, thinking maybe that it was painful to lie on that side, with her head facing that way—no; all clear.

Tried all the positions too. No rhyme or reason—Baby2 accepted both nipples.

Is she still gaining weight, seems happy and pooing/peeing? Mine seemed to suddenly speed up at feeding at a certain point in the early weeks and started to fill up in just a couple of minutes. They do go through phases of feeding more then less again.

@Ygfrhj I’ll find out tomorrow at HV appointment what’s her weight.
I didn’t weigh her in the week of vaccinations, but up until then she was on the 91st centile give or take since birth.

She’s smiley when awake and today did already 3 poos 🙄

She’s just terrible to feed when awake and seems to have tummy/reflux (not sure which end or both) discomfort, so also does a lot of 20mins cat-napping.

Perhaps this is still the side effect of the vaccine?
One of her poos was just yellow blob of mucus ☹️

Formula in a bottle sounds a lot less stressful!
if you’re feeling panicky whilst feeding she would pick up on it

He took the second rotavirus dose just as badly, I'm afraid. But the thing is, if the vaccine is this bad, it means the actual illness would hit really horribly hard so in a way, thank god for the vaccine.

The hiccups and the congestion and being uncomfortable during feeding sound like silent reflux and possible CMPA.

My son had CMPA and he never had a rash, he was just extremely uncomfortable, squirming and loud breathing, and it got worse and worse. Around 8 weeks i decided to cut dairy and soy and he was a changed baby! If you do go down this road, be very very strict. No butter or ghee or any takeaways whatsoever (most restaurants use soy in cooking). If after a few weeks you see an improvement, you have your cause.

It could also be a problem with the feeding, if the latch isn't great. Have you seen a lactation consultant? I paid for one and it was honestly money very well spent.

And introducing formula to a baby with any kind of stomach upset is a shit idea. It will just upset her stomach more.

@BrendaSmall
I’m not panicking yet, will start if her weight is dropping.
Invested so much in bf that wouldn’t like to quit if it’s just vaccine side effect and will pass…

@BoyFTM645
My older DS1 was supposedly having CMPA - he took the vaccine terribly (but he was a fan of a boob, so rather than avoid it - he would eat and poo at the same time). But he took weeks to recover, A&E visit after his 16 week vax and a round of antibiotics as he must have caught something real in meantime.
I was on restricted diet with him for weeks when he was 4/5 months old and it didn’t get better. His poo was just slime.
I weaned him earlier at the advice of GP and started some special formula - and only then true problems started.. but it was too late, I got back to work in meantime so couldn’t keep any breastfeeding going.
Whatever caused his tummy issues was only worse on formula, and he didn’t even have a boob to rest at..
I still feel sad about it, so don’t want give up here yet.

I’ll try to cut milk and soy then and see what happens. Have to admit - do love chocolate very much 🙄

We had great feeding support from local LC and we were doing better with latching (she has a bit of posterior tongue tie, but she can latch perfectly, when she’s not unwell or in discomfort or overtired - and for past week she’s all of it at once it seems).
I feed her when she’s asleep, and if I try to re-latch and she wakes up…that is that.. 😣
She’s arching her back, crying, and won’t get anywhere near nipple..

Hey wondering how this is going for you? My son got his 12 week vaccine on the 24th, and since then he’s drinking 700ml rather than 800. And I think today it’ll be even less 😭. I expected it the first two days but thought he’ll be fine today.

@MarlaSinger2017 I perfected the mug brownie for this reason, taking away all biscuits and chocolates and pastries from me was haaaaard:

30g flour
28g sugar
12g cocoa (high quality 100% cocoa)
2 tablespoons of coconut oil
1 tiny drop of vanilla
4 tablespoons of almond/whatever milk of choice

1 min in the microwave and leave it alone for 5 minutes

It was my treat during his afternoon nap 😅 every day.

@ruks013
I was hoping we crossed Rubicon today, but it hasn’t happened yet… day 8 for us today.
I’m getting a bit concerned now as her weight dropped from 91th to 79th centile.
I saw two different HVs and they were not concerned though. One of them suggested skin to skin and if I’m worried to go see the GP.
But if the weight isn’t a problem, I’m not sure what GP can help with here?
I do struggle to calm her down during the day, she’s just straining and really uncomfortable. She had a massive diarrhoea poo today.
She feeds on average every 3hrs for 6mins max (is that normal? Awfully short and she seemed to try to get back on breast but just cannot keep the nipple in her mouth).

Hang in there - first 2-3 days I wasn’t concerned, just let them lead, keep comfortable, make sure they sleep plenty and eat whenever they feel like.
Not sure what to tell you if it lasts longer than that as I don’t think it should, but was re-assured today that’s normal.

@BoyFTM645
Thanks a bunch! Will try it out and let you know (if I manage to put her on an afternoon nap).
First dairy-free day behind me, completely bloated from oat milk! 😅

And for everyone else checking this thread - I completed the Yellow Card report of side effects for rotavirus vaccine. I guess if more people would report how long the side effects lasted for their babies (not 2-3 days as per leaflet), then perhaps it’ll change the guidelines or add some extra layer of checks before administering.

My daughter had feeding aversions and these were due to severe silent reflux and multiple food allergies. The feeding aversion started at 1 week but it was 8+ weeks before she was screamy and couldn't be put down.
She wasn't diagnosed until 17 weeks after her last lot of vaccines that tipped her into completely inconsolable. It could be that the vaccines have triggered something that was bothering her ever so slightly into nope this is horrible. Once we got her I to a better place the feeding aversion was the first sign that I had eaten something she reacted to
I went down fast letdown route first. I think she also had a mild tongue tie. It was more obvious around 1 year that her mobility in and out than up and down. I have my second now and he had a severe tongue tie cut at 8 days and his feeding during the first week was more similar to feeding my daughter with latch slipping as they fed having to stop and pause to get a nice deep latch and that not feeling "natural". Since his division he feeds effectively and comfortably and puts himself on and off the breast effortlessly. Whilst her query tongue tie didn't have significant impact on her and she could feed ok, I think it did make feeding more sensitive to other aspects that made feeding difficult

@Superscientist Thanks for your input and the story.

How did you manage the reflux and how did you confirm the diagnosis?

My DD does spit up a lot more past week and seems really in pain/uncomfortable while hungry and couldn’t latch at all… so reflux would fit the bill.

I’m a bit lost which route to follow to address this, but I go back now and re-analyse our bf journey.
She did struggle to keep good latch despite the efforts from day 1. She kept leaving the tip of my nipple always blanched and it’s still blanched - I just don’t pay attention anymore.
I also assumed fast flow, so since blanching didn’t bother me - I thought she feeds well, but she would cough and splatter and needs burping often.
She also does always feed on one breast per feed only, rarely comes off content, during the feed she’s swallowing really fast, like gulping - but all of these are as much symptoms of reflux as of fast flow, aren’t they?

She is ok lying flat though, and once she spits up (which takes sometimes 1hr after feed to come out) - she also seems fine on her back, if anything being upright after feeds makes her more uncomfortable.
She is also very gassy - but that seems to come out from digestion rather bf directly as it comes hours later. I guess could be also delayed allergic reaction?

All these things are so interconnected and one can be a cause or symptom of another 😣
I agree though that the vaccinations just accelerated whatever issue she has…

Somehow she feeds only 5-6mins every 3 hours on average and makes enough wet nappies and 2/3 poos per day…
But that’s all we do all day now, which is miserable - waiting to burp, waiting to spit up, contact napping, rocking and carrying and trying to feed.

I’m not sure if I should go GP route for reflux, LC to get latch sorted or go back to feeding clinic for another oral assessment…😣
Just really want to make her comfortable with feeding.

I'd probably go with all of it to be honest, I'd also get a tongue tie assessment from someone ,competent. Get a feeding assessment, try positions that help with fast letdowns - leaned back or lying down, if she's gulping take her off and calm the flow with a clean muslin or hand express before you put her own until the letdown calms a little.
Speak to the GP about trialling gaviscon or omperazole and keep a food diary to see if there is any correlation with foods in your diet

It is possibly a collection of things so with my daughter I did have a fast letdown but she mostly handled it ok except on the time she didn't. She possibly had a mild tongue tie we did notice once she was older there were some restrictions of moment and most of the time it didn't affect her except when it did. She had a bit of physical reflux but she definitely had severe silent reflux as well and that was fairly consistent until properly medicated and there was the cmpa.

When feeding didn't hurt because of reflux and allergies she could latch in a way that she was comfortable and then she could handle the fast flow and feed fairly effectively despite small restrictions in tongue movement.

When feeding hurt she would pull on and off and that would mean the she was getting a face and mouthful of milk which she couldn't control. She was pulling on and off and getting stressed so feeding wasn't comfortable. She'd just be on the edge of the nipple which modulated the flow.

We saw the infant feeding team several times because of the feeding aversion and screaming through feeds at worst it was pulling off and screaming every few seconds. At the most extreme she was feeding for 5-10 seconds every 1-2h during the day and then frequently overnight. I found she only fed calmly lying down so started doing that where I could. I saw another person from the infant feeding team who told me not to feed her if she was going to refuse to latch properly. The following morning my HV came around to me sobbing because she wouldn't latch properly and she said does it hurt you? No just feed how she wants and do your best.

She started reflux treatment at 6 weeks first gaviscon and then omperazole.both at low doses for the bit of physical reflux she had. She wasn't diagnosed with the silent reflux and allergies until 4 and a half months when we ended in paeds after the 4 month vaccines. I had a food diary that showed whenever I had a lot of soya (veggie) she was worse. The paediatrician put her on high doses of gaviscon and omperazole and I went dairy and soya free and within a week I had a different baby. The feeding aversion would then return if I ate something she reacted to or her reflux got out of control.

She couldn't be put down but the thing she hated most was her position changing so would get upset if I moved her upright. She never had more than one side unless cluster feeding. She rarely fed for more than 5 minutes.

I have an 11 week old now. He had an 100% tongue tie cut at day 8 and I have a fast letdown again but he latches beautifully since the tongue tie was cut. There's some times when he gets overwhelmed and need to calm the flow before putting him back on. He rarely feeds from more than one side too but will feed for longer, if I take him off the first side he won't latch on the second so I now just leave him on. He's quite a sicky baby but only struggles occasionally usually when he's done a lot of comfort feeding. We have infant gaviscon but only needed to use it 3 or 4 times. I have pretty much no soya in my diet and only low amounts of dairy as my daughter still can't have either so we will have to investigate those when we start weaning. It does make me see that with my daughter it was a collection of things that came together.

Sorry that's so long!

@Superscientist hey, thanks for sharing your story, sounds very similar to my daughter 😫
Just wondering if she could have that from day 1 - as she’s been always uncomfortable after feeds and never really enjoyed comfort feeding.
I guess I’m trying to be hopeful that this is something with breastfeeding that can be corrected rather than allergies/reflux as primary cause 😫

Just got off the phone with GP - suggested using gripe water?
We decided to re-assess next week and if nothing will change I’ll just push for meds.

Just don’t really like they’re dismissive bc she makes wet nappies and saying maybe it’s her new feeding pattern…
Is it possible for 10 weeker to feed 5-6hrs just 4 times daily for 5mins?
It’s not like she’s happy in between, and 2-3hrs of that gap is trying to feed her as she’s definitely hungry.

I expressed some milk today and tried to give her in the bottle - didn’t make much difference… she didn’t take it, can’t think she wasn’t hungry in the morning after 5hrs of not having milk?

I fed her when she was drowsy in the end, and just keep her asleep on me.

Dairy-free day 3… can’t see any difference yet.

Have you tried cup feeding her? Even tiny babies can drink from a cup. Have a look on YouTube for technique.
Also - in terms of weight, sometimes my babies would take a stretch and put on length rather than weight if you know what I mean so maybe she's getting taller this week?

Could you also discuss delaying the next norovirus dose with your GP seeing as baby seems to have taken badly to it?

@LeeshaPaper
Thanks for replying.
Yes, I already decided to delay the oral vaccine. It can be given until 24 weeks and in some countries second dose is scheduled with 16 weeks vaccinations.

It is possible she’s grew length-wise - indeed she stopped fitting in her 62cm pramsuit and all sleeping suits 0-3 months feel tight.

Her not feeding though or being very upset about positioning for feeding is what worries me.
I doesn’t seem to be improving for 10 days now.

I just do skin to skin today all day, and as much as I can over the weekend. She fed twice since morning - but her latch is just terrible 🧐 back to square one..

I got nowhere for ages. Gp kept saying she's gaining weight she's fine. I don't know she was still gaining weight when she was only feeding for 2 minutes total during the day but there you go.

It's great that they are outgrowing clothes! My 11 week old is only just going in to 0-3 month clothes!! Sounds like they are growing nicely so that is one relief but yes it the whole experience that needs looking at

Skin to skin and lying down feeds helped, there was one desperate day where I calmed her in the bath and then lay feeding her naked on the bathroom floor with a towel over both of us. Do you have a stretchy sling? I have found with both when they have got themselves in a state that calming them in the sling then loosening all the straps and doing a feed without removing them helpful.

Do you have an infant feeding team to have advice on latch and so on? How's your relationship with your HV? how many wet and dirty nappies are they having?