When can we introduce a bottle of expressed milk + why is BF sooooooooo painful

[AAR]

Hi,

DD2 only 6 days but BF is killing me. Boobs are like boulders (huge and hard), nipples bleeding a lot and am trying to keep going, nearly fainted yesterday with the pain of it. Can any one offer any tips. DD doesn't open wide for latch-on and I think one breast is too full for her to get on properly at all, so have tried expressing but this just seems to have increased the amount of milk even more argh....She only feeds for 5mins at a time and then drops off to sleep, so we are a pretty crap team.

Hate throwing away the expressed milk and would like a chance to let nipples recover - so can we introduce a bottle yet? and if not now when? I was rubbish at BF last time round too need to get it right this time, but the pain is too much - bring back wet nurses i say!

you poor thing

You need to see a bf counsellor ASAP in real life to get that latch right - if she's only 6 days your midwife (if she's any good) should come out.

If not try:
National Breastfeeding Helpline 0844 20 909 20
Association of Breastfeeding Mothers helpline 08444 122 949
Breastfeeding Network Supporterline: 0844 412 4664
La Leche League Telephone Helpline: 0845 120 2918
National Childbirth Trust Breastfeeding line: 0870 444 8708

'Perhaps try getting your partner or a relative or friend to make the first call, in case you need to leave a message, since you may be emotional and it can be hard to key yourself up to ring for support, then get an answerphone message.'

don't throw away the expressed milk though - stick it in a tupperware in the freezer and you may be glad of it later.

A lot of people find that bf hurts for the first week or so, but if it continues then I would get a bf counsellor to check your latch, as that is the main cause of prolonged pain whilst bf. In the mean time, are you using some lansinoh or kamillosan cream on your nipples after feeds?

When you say that you have tried expressing, do you mean just hand expressing a tiny bit off just before you feed, or do you mean going at it with a pump at some other time. If the latter, then STOP! The former should help her latch on better if you are a bit engorged.

DD used to fall asleep on the breast too, and it can be a PITA (although also a great excuse for me to sit down whilst she slept on my lap!). Have you tried stripping her off so that she's not so warm and sleepy? Or blowing gently on her face? Or waking her with a nappy change before putting her on again?

I personally wouldn't introduce an expressed bottle yet, as it could confuse your supply, but don't throw away the expressed milk - freeze it for when you are ready to use it!

You need to see a bf counsellor - today if possible. Phone the midwife and ask about local clinics - make a point of saying you want to see a BREASTFEEDING COUNSELLOR

If your nipples are bleeding it's because your baby isn't well attached, and this might also account for the engorgement you're experiencing.

Express off a bit by hand to soften the breast before you feed - but no more.

In between feeds - cabbage leaves in the bra.

Re: getting your baby to open her mouth wide, don't know what a bf counsellor would say about this, but I used to move my sons chin back when he was actually latched on if he hadn't got a big mouthful of breast. It workd for me, but I reckon a bfc might say you have to break the latch and try again - teasing baby's mouth gently with your nipple, being patient and waiting for the gape, holding them in the most comfortable position (nose to nipple, tummy to mummy etc).

Also reiterate stripping baby off to wake her up for feeds, but it could be that she's sleepy because she's jaundiced (is she? a bit yellow?). Is she pooing? Weeing?

I do think you should see a bfc ASAP.

Keep any milk you draw off and put it in the fridge. You could try cup feeding your baby with it or giving it to her from a syringe, or from a tea spoon.

Hope you get bf sorted soon. ((Hugs)) to you!

This was so me two weeks ago. Dd is now 4 weeks and she has gradually got up to 20 mins of feeding (sometimes). My boobs hurt like hell and I got mastitis twice but it has got a bit easier. I almost gave up and actually tried to force some formula down her neck at 19 days (but she wasn't having any of it). Anyway, I felt like we turned a corner at about 3 weeks so do try to persevere. As your daughter gets bigger she will feed for longer and it will hurt less.

I started to express at 3 weeks so that dh cound give her a bottle in the evening and to get her used to a bottle in case I abandon bf in the near future.

I have given myself little targets like try and get to 3 weeks etc.I'm now aiming for 6 and if it gets too much then fuck it I can always go onto bottles and at least I've done my best.

Good luck

Good luck

Think baby is fine - lots of wet nappies and looking plump and pink. Am trying to break the latch when its unbearable, but its so hard to get her off when I can see she is getting some milk however painful to me. She has managed 20 mins on the right boob, which is softer, but both nipples have large scabs on them.

Will stop the machine expressing and just try to soften before each feed. Trying breast shells today which is a relief as extra milk is just dripping out (there is tonnes of it) and nipple is not being rubbed or soaked - I hate the pads. Has anyone tried these shells (avent)?

Was hoping to try BFC tomorrow but I think its closed this week for some reason and I am not sure I have the energy to get to the further away one.

Oh, forgot to say thank you so much for responses, its nice to know you are all out there - wish I had some wisdom to impart, but seem to be a bit limited in baby skills at the mo'.
A

The bfcs listed by MrsB are not closed, and will come out to you if necessary, so don't delay if you want/need help. It's what they are there for, so you're not troubling them .

AAR I found those shells helpful - even if they look at bit odd!
Both DSs were v painfull feeders to start off with - for about 10 days ish. I am still feeding DS2 at 12 months so it does get easier. I cannot recommend Kamillosan highly enough - it helped my scabs heal v quickly and it doesn't harm your LO. Cabbages are great too.
It does get easier!!!!!!!!
BTW I found a lot of them commercial pads too itchy and the material ones too soggy (although they are usefull now for removing makeup!) I found so good disposable pads with naturecare (www.naturebotts.co.uk - although you can get them in other places too these people deliver v quickly)
Also try and get lots of air on your boobs - sit around with them out!!!!! It helps.

I went through much the same thing when dd2 was 2-3 weeks old, she's now 5 weeks and things are much, much better - I know it probably doesn't feel like it now but if you can just keep going it will almost certainly get better but do get as much help as you need from midwives, breastfeeding counsellors etc.

I used the breast shells for a while too, which really helped with both giving nipples time to heal and drawing off a little of the milk between feeds which I think helped with the engorgement. Also, I know it's not generally advised as it can interfere with supply, but I used nipple shields just for a week as my nipples were bleeding and needed a bit of a break to heal. I used the shields for feeds then rubbed nipples with milk and left them to air between feeds. However, I only did this after having latch/positioning checked by breastfeeding counsellors - you need to sort any underlying problems or things won;t get better.

Poor you! Exactly how I felt 6 weeks ago. I had scabs on my nips too and very swollen boobs. I hand expressed a bit of milk after gently putting warm flannel over each before feeding to help LO. Was soothing.

Agree about the Avent shells they're really helpful, in combo with sitting about with the boobs out. Letting them air's best way to help them heal.

I used the lansinoh lanolin cream to soothe the scabs.

Breast feeding counsellor helped me, as did the website kellymom.com, all about breastfeeding. And support on here!

It took me some toe curling and gritted teeth to get through those early days - it does get better though, and I'm now really pleased to have stuck with it - it's a lovely bonding experience once the pain's gone!

Poor you - hope you manage to see/speak to a bfc soon.
You've had some great tips here so just thought I'd add mine to the list...

• Lansinoh cream - expensive but the very best
• To relieve engorgement, glad shells are helping. Can also recommend sitting in hot bath... helps all other achy/painful post-birth bits and can let milk drip out and you can massage boobs a bit too to help.
• Keep taking the paracetamol/ibuprofen (I took these alternately around every 3 hours while awake for a couple of weeks. Had sore stiches too, but def helped with the bfing and afterpains so I just kept going for a while.
• Best breastpads I found were also Lansinoh - they hold the milk in expanding gel etc like nappies, so don't feel wet to the touch. Over-packaged but better than any other disposable ones. Also if you use Lansinoh cream then you don't get the nasty feeling of sticking to the pads and tearing the skin/scab again every time you remove.

HTH

Oh and another brilliant website for latch etc - www.drjacknewman.com

Ouch Catilla! I remeber the scab tearing when using breast pads & lansinoh. winces

Find your local breastfeeding group here and see if they can help.

I used shells in hospital and they were brilliant.

Something that hasn't been mentioned is don't hold the back of her head when you're latching or feeding her. Not many people realise that and it can cause problems when everything else is right.

I've seen lots of people mentioning things you can buy to help, but no one has mentioned the free lotion you can use! When you have finished a feed express a little milk off and rub it over your nipples. If you can try and be topless at home, if it's uncomfortable without a bra then just keep it unclipped, having your nipples exposed to the air will help them.

No further advice,Just make sure that you are trying to encourage LO to take whole of nipple in mouth,stroke her bottom lip,as she opens,stick as much as you can in.I used to lay my LO's hand on my boob as they were often really cold,and this helped soothe them,especially in the first few painful moments.Also keep pressing her palm as she begins to get drowsy,this is supposed to keep them awake.I'm sure you are probably trying all this anyway.If you can feel any "hard or hot" spots on your boob,try working down towards the nipple with a light finger pressure,relieves blocked ducts.HTH keep going,you are very nearly over the worst.

Really, it will only hurt for a little while. Once you get past the sore nipples/engorged boobs stage it will all settle down and won't hurt at all. Mine stopped hurting after about two weeks.

Also, if you don't introduce a bottle soon, your baby may never take one. It wouldn't hurt at all to give her a bottle of expressed milk from time to time. Also you can freeze the milk. Boots sell special BM freezer bags.

I totally disagree. There is no window of opportunity for giving a bottle. A bottle at this age could confuse the baby, at the same time it might not but how do you know?

I've never given a bottle, but I have supplemented. I also know people who exclusively BFed for the first six months and then gave a bottle.

I gave expressed milk from a week or so, I found breastfeeding excruciatingly painful in the early weeks and expressing really was the only way I managed to continue breastfeeding. so I'm quite a fan of expressing. Have bf 3 dds now, for a year each on average, and would never have managed it without a lot of expressing, including in the early weeks. It didn't mess up my supply, or ruin breastfeeding. It restored my sanity.

Tinkerbellesmum, I did say may never take one. I know lots of people whose babies have refused bottles point blank because they'd never had one before. Others who've had occasional bottles at an early age make the switch much more easily.
Every baby is different of course so this isn't a hard and fast rule.

I def think you need to get your MW to look at your latch. You shouldn't have bleeding nipples. Mine were sore for the first few weeks with both my children but i used LANSINOH cream on them which is fab. I did express and gave both my dc a bottle at ten days. Def freeze any milk you do express - don't waste it!!!!!!!!! I would be sure to look at some of the above sites too. Oh and my sister uses nipple shields as she got very sore. She is still feeding three months on and has 'weaned' her baby off back to just nipple too! Worth thinking about?

I bought those "Baby Whisperer" special bottles/teats.designed in America for Prem babies,as they are the only teat that allows the baby to suck in the same way as breastfeeding.The baby only gets the milk if they suck,all other bottles (even Dr Browns will let milk flow whether sucked or not,helps decrease Air intake/Colic pains etc.Hayberman bottles I think they are called,you can get them from The Baby Whisperer website direct,or from EBay.This way you can alternate between BF and EBM,and everyone else can help too.

Am sitting here with boobs out (hoping the window cleaner doesn't come!) having done a
SO much good advice...10min feed with a bit less screaming pain (rhs again). Scabs coming off (looks awful) but Dh out on a hunt for creams (none in boots apparently). Will try the phone numbers after lunch and see if anyone can come out to look at latch - I know its wrong but can't seem to get her little mouth open.

I think I am going to try small steps - if we can get the feeding established (lots of you seem to suggest it takes 5 to 8 weeks) we will try the expressing/bottle lark again then. Feel calmer now lots of you have said it does hurt - the "if it hurts you are doing it wrong" line always upsets me - because it compounds a sense of failure - I wish the offical line was "Its probably going to feel a pretty sore for a bit, but you will get there". Luckily this time I know I am not failing DD2, we are just a bit rubbish and need some help. God, its only day 6...

Have you checked for a tongue tie? My DS had this and it made BF excriatiating. Also if you are expressing off milk why dont you try giving it to your DD by cup if you google cup feeding it will show you how to do this.

Defo go and see a BF councellor they will help.

Also second the cabbage leaves get a reg cabbage put it in the fridge then give the leaves a little squuze to break the veins and put inside your bra honestly th relief will be immediate.

Lansnoh is brilliant slap that on your nips.

Try feeding lying down on your side can often be easier to get the latch right.

Good luck keep posting am sure some of the BF gurus will be around to offer advice shortly.

So much good advice!

Am sitting here with boobs out (hoping the window cleaner doesn't come!) having done a 10min feed with a bit less screaming pain (rhs again). Scabs coming off (looks awful) but Dh out on a hunt for creams (none in boots apparently). Will try the phone numbers after lunch and see if anyone can come out to look at latch - I know its wrong but can't seem to get her little mouth open.

I think I am going to try small steps - if we can get the feeding established (lots of you seem to suggest it takes 5 to 8 weeks) we will try the expressing/bottle lark again then. Feel calmer now lots of you have said it does hurt - the "if it hurts you are doing it wrong" line always upsets me - because it compounds a sense of failure - I wish the offical line was "Its probably going to feel a pretty sore for a bit, but you will get there". Luckily this time I know I am not failing DD2, we are just a bit rubbish and need some help. God, its only day 6...