Help me draft a peace treaty

[verylittlecarrot]

I was thinking of proposing a peace treaty, for all of us, regardless of how we feed our babies. Something like:

We, the undersigned, agree the following;

• We shall phrase our words with care and sensitivity, always remembering how powerfully feelings run on infant feeding, and that vulnerable people may read those words and be genuinely wounded by them.

• We do not believe that other people are inferior because their choices differ from ours.

• We shall welcome open and frank discussion of facts, evidence based research and statistics on risks and benefits of formula feeding and breastfeeding. We shall not attempt to suppress discussion of the facts, nor shall we deny the research exists.

• We accept that it is every woman's right to have facts and information available to her about the way she feeds her baby.

• We shall not judge each other on our feeding choices.

• We will try to be kind, and compassionate at all times, accepting the colourful variety of choices that we all make as parents as the expression of us each finding our own way though motherhood.

• We shall refrain from extrapolating our own individual experience into universal truth; just because it worked for me does not mean it will be harmless for someone else. We will be careful not to advise others to take an action without offering them understanding of the risks involved.

• We shall not bear false witness; we shall not falsely claim that others hate formula; nor that they believe it is evil, or that it is akin to poison, if they have said no such thing.

• We shall not accuse others of "making formula feeders feel guilty or bad"; if the discussion has been non-judgemental we shall accept it as such.

• We shall not resort to stereotypes and name calling; formula feeders are not selfish, breastfeeders are not militant or smug.

so - any wordsmiths out there? Feel free to add to, subtract from, or generally reword this to make it seem like a bunch of principles something people would want to agree to on the feeding forum.

Voluntary sign up, obv!

I think we should simply limit ourselves to giving practical advice (when asked) such as how to make up a feed in advance or how to heal sore nipples etc....

All those quasi- philosophical debates over pros and cons and research and choices bla bla bla just add confusion.

hmm. So you are actually in favour of suppressing facts, Slim?

Probably not what I was looking for here! Thanks for replying though.

Oh no, not suppressing facts just suppressing people who think they have all the facts right

All I mean is that I understand this forum to be about personal experiences not lectures.

slim - where did you get the idea from that this forum is about personal experiences?

It includes personal experiences, but it is not about personal experiences.

Laudable idea, vlc. Will think about it!

I think it's really good, vlc!

Could you maybe give your points numbers? MIght make it easier to discuss.

For example, your 2nd and 5th points are quite similar and maybe could be condensed to make one point about not judging other people for their choices.

Also your 3rd and 4th points, about being informed and the importance of freedom of information.

As I read it, I think the fewer main points there are, the easier it'll be to take in as a whole. The main points could be quite complex within themselves though, in order to make it quite clear what they're about.

I think you've made some very good points here, and they're beautifully expressed - you've picked up on a lot of the common MN flashpoints for arguments and you've described them very clearly.

The VLCBFFF Treaty.

Sounds good.

Another thought: should we put in something to the effect that we don't expect to have to justify what we've done - nor do we demand that others justify their decisions or actions.

I'm probably not putting this very clearly - I'm sure you could do better - but a lot of people post quite defensively on here. For example, there will be a discussion about breastfeeding and someone will come on and say, "well, I had to formula feed because..." and give a long explanation for why they ended up formula feeding.

I think that's really sad. It's always interesting to read someone else's story, but I hate to think that anyone feels they have to justify themselves on here.

There's a thread on at the moment which is more or less demanding that formula feeders justify themselves and I think that's just horrible.

I feel (very strongly) that we're absolutely not accountable to anyone else for the decisions we made about our children.

We should be accountable at all times for what we say on here and should always be prepared to back up our opinions with facts and reasons, but that's a different thing.

You are right wellie - I was a bit ranty and wordy whilst dashing this off - here we go with your amendments:

1. We shall phrase our words with care. kindness and sensitivity, always remembering how powerfully feelings run on infant feeding, and that vulnerable people may read those words and be genuinely wounded by them.

1. We do not believe that other people are inferior because their choices differ from ours. We shall not judge each other on our feeding choices.

1. We accept that it is every woman's right to have facts and information available to her about the way she feeds her baby. We welcome open and frank discussion of facts, evidence based research and statistics on risks and benefits of formula feeding and breastfeeding. We shall not attempt to suppress discussion of the facts, nor shall we deny the research exists.

1. We shall refrain from extrapolating our own individual experience into universal truth; just because it worked for me does not mean it will be harmless for someone else. We will be careful not to advise others to take an action without offering them understanding of the risks involved.

1. We shall not bear false witness; we shall not falsely claim that others hate formula; nor that they believe it is evil, or that it is akin to poison, if they have said no such thing.

1. We shall not accuse others of "making formula feeders feel guilty or bad"; if the discussion has been non-judgemental we shall accept it as such.

1. We shall not resort to stereotypes and name calling; formula feeders are not selfish, breastfeeders are not militant or smug.

Still too wordy, but it can be trimmed. I'm off to bed for now - thanks for replying.

1. We seek to understand each other better; not by demanding explanations or justifications for others' choices, but through considerate and honest questioning. No-one should feel compelled to 'defend' their choices in an environment where there is no 'attack' on those choices.

You have a Way With Words, vlc .

I think that's great. Go and get some sleep now!

Tiktok, that's my understanding. Mums asking other mums opinions. "By parents for parents"
It's not a professional advice board.
You give your opinion based on your experience.
You are very knowledgeable on feeding issues and I do value your posts (as well as some of a few others) who I've learned over years to be well versed in certain subjects

That experience might include your professional experience. But you are still presenting yourself as a fellow parent not as a professional as far as I understand.

I really noticed that when we accept each others post as opinions we can discuss (even argue fiercly) in a civil way because at the end of the day, we're still made to feel free to make up our own minds at the end of the discussion.

When we start throwing "hard facts" and research at each other it often goes downhill simply because people gang up or try and shove "hard facts" down your throat and I'm sorry to say, a lot of people are talking out of their ass/uninformed/misinformed.

I'd be very interested to hear what others think this forum is about.

PS: BTW I'm not at all against VLC's suggestion. I just think it's superfluous.

I think you have understood it wrongly, then slim. 'By parents, for parents' does not mean only sharing 'personal experience', which is what you said mumsnet was 'about'....and I certainly don't use personal experience here when answering queries

Why can we not share facts (what is the difference between 'hard facts' and 'facts' - I'm puzzled!) and what is wrong with sharing research? Of course if people are misinformed, it's not helpful, but because of some people being misinformed, you don't want to hear research and facts??? In fact, you regard hearing facts and research as having it 'thrown' at you.

very good. how about adding something in along the lines of - careful scrutiny of the companies that market and sell formula isn't a covert attempt to demonise formula feeders.

Well, this is going nowhere tiktok, it's a shame, I feel you are not even trying to understand what I'm saying.

You sound very dismissing and are playing with semantics ("facts" and "hard facts" is the same thing fgs, just a manner of speaking, you are seing too much into it)

We CAN share facts. I DO research facts (I'm trained as a lawyer btw) only what I suggest very humbly is being less pedantic when presenting what is finally only your subjective opinion, be it based on research.

"not suppressing facts just suppressing people who think they have all the facts right" is what I said in the first place.

Anyway, I reiterate that I do value a lot of opinions here BECAUSE they are based on EXPERIENCE. When I come here with a question on ie: sodding pregnancy piles ( a big at 38 weeks), I want opinions on what works best to relieve it BASED ON WHAT"S BEEN TRIED AND TESTED. Then I compile my own conclusion. I kind of already know what to do but I want guidance in choosing between various options.

Do you understand? That's the value of mumsnet.

It's like BF, we've all read the books, seen the useless midwives, talked to unsympathetic family members, sometimes we've been there with another child.
We still need reassurance and support and come here and have research -yes "thrown in our face" - when what we are asking for is just a little sympathy ("been there done that, don't worry love, try this things will improve" something along those lines to help you get through the day)

Sympathy rather than lectures. Isn't that what the above charter implies?

Maybe I don't understand, slim, you may be right!

You are requesting no sharing of facts (hard or otherwise) and no sharing of research.

These can exist alongside opinions and personal experience.

Research can be 'tried and tested' too.

If someone comes on here and asks about pregnancy piles, yes, they will benefit from sympathy and support...but if someone has research information as well (and quotes a study which shows a high fibre diet has a better result in the study than creams) why would they not share it? They may not have had pregnancy piles themselves, or even know anyone who has had them, but if they follow your suggestions, the quoting of research is 'out'.

Ditto with breastfeeding and bottle feeding. Opnions and personal experience and support are all valuable - but alongside (surely) facts and research, when the facts and the research are relevant.

Still mystified why you have such a downer on facts and research - intelligent and questioning women can only benefit from having these as part of the discussion, surely.

Sometimes I think MN is one of the only places we can get the truth, and if that comes in the form of people maybe seemingly shoving it down our throats then maybe we have to put up with that, or just take things a little less to heart.

It's hard to word things with no expressions and tone so a conversation in writing is always going to eb harder than one face-to-face but IRL everyone is trying so hard not to overstep the mark or upset people, or the people giving advice are the wrong people, ones who are just repeating bad advice and untruths so if someone can say 'I do this for a job and know the truth' I'm much more inclined to listen tbh.

Experience is all well and good but a lot of people have, for example, mix-fed or weaned early, and we know that mix-feeding isn't as simple as 'here, have a bottle' if someone is going to do it and doesn't want to stop BFing altogether they need to understand the principles behind milk production and the risks on their supply, same with weaning, years ago it was normal to wean earlier, I was told to wean DD at 4 months by my HV so had I not researched, read up and had two other children then I could recc weaning at 4months, so in those cases I think knowledge and profession are more important than experience, personally.

Shoving research down people's throats is in the eye of the shovee, Squalor!!

If all people want is sympathy and support and reassurance and personal experience, and they really do not want facts or research, then find that research and facts appear as well, then they are going to experience the facts and research as being 'shoved'.

It's not always possible to know who wants what - personally, I think someone in current, huge distress about giving formula probably does not benefit from being told about the (research-based) risks of formula feeding, and in fact, the risks probably won't appear on that thread....but of course they will appear elsewhere, on threads which are a more appropriate home.

That's part of being a forum which is one of the most feisty, robust and intelligent forums on the web

For fluffy kittens and sparkly tickers and no nasty howwid facts and research anywhere at all, posters can go this way ======= >

good idea VLC

slim, with certain issues it is the cold hard facts that can be far more reassuring than 'i did/had/experienced that too'.

for example, i'm bf-ing a toddler at the minute and as comforting as it is to know i'm not alone the most helpful post on the issue i've seen was a link to the kellymom page which gives the facts and figures on the benefits of ltbf.

another example is health issues, my kids both have food intolerances. anecdotal evidance, while always welcome, is nowhere near as helpful as cold hard, scientific facts when dealing with childrens health issues.

sorry about the ineloquent post btw, ds is asleep on me and one handed typing still isn't my strong point

Oh, I agree tiktok, it's all perception, but if you were to read a lot of the bf/ff threads and see all the facts and research, which is often repeated when you were in a place where all you needed was a bit of reassurance and support then sadly your own guilt can make it seem that people are preaching and things are being 'shoved down throats'.
I personally don't think I've ever seen a thread I'd claim was done in this way, but I guess thats because I want to see the info, I want to know the facts and research behind it, not everyone does and it's pretty impossible to hide from on here.

I'm really not dismissing facts and research.

I'm just annoyed when those facts and research papers are presented through the subjective spectrum of a discussion board as evangelical truths.
It can be very intimidating for those who do things differently to then come and say so and seek guidance.

Anyway, we can talk and talk forever about this. I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. Hope you can accept this slightly different point of vue.

Example of a post anywhere which presents research as 'evangelical truth', slim???

Not that I am certain what an 'evangelical' truth is - do you mean the poster is being 'evangelical'?

If so, then I would agree we want to discourage people from being 'evangelical' - covered in VLC's proposed treaty, surely?

Discouraging evangelism is quite different from stopping the communication of facts and research which is what you wanted to do - I hope the arguments here have shown what an untenable position this is!

For example, you have said:

"I think we should simply limit ourselves to giving practical advice "

You can't, surely, still think this.

Well once again "evangelical truth" is a manner of speaking.

Surely you can lighten up a bit and stop playing with semantics?

I'm referring to "trends" such as BF is the only true path, BLW is the way forward, natural mother earth water birth experience is how real mothers do it, co-sleeping is what good mothers do etc....

I practiced most of the above myself and yes have read all the research. What if you feel differently?
You know how minority opinions are often treated here on these subjects.
You can't deny this?

slim - this is a forum relying on written expression. Semantics is one of the few tools we have to ensure we all know what each other is talking about, and for the sake of clarity, you needed to explain what you meant by 'evangelical truth' - if you think merely stating the truth is itself 'evangelical' then no wonder we are talking at x purposes. I am glad you didn't mean that.

If people have a 'minority' opinion, they may be challenged to back it up with facts and research. If someone with a 'minority' opinion comes out with bigotry or judgmentalism, then they may be challenged more robustly - and why not?

It's the ones with 'minority' opinions that come out with crap such as 'breastfeeding mafia' - on a thread this very morning, but as it happens, I have let that one go.

Well yes, Slim, BF, BLW, natural birth and co-sleeping are trends if you like.

They're not terribly recent trends, though, are they - they're the way humans have been giving birth and feeding babies for millions of years.

What is fascinating is that study after study is showing us that the natural way of doing things is better for our health. We are adapted to do things in certain ways and the adaptation is very complex and works on many different levels.

The natural way isn't for everyone, of course - plenty of people need help to deliver their baby safely, and there's no point in saying that bf is better if someone can't do that.

But it's very clear that a lot of our cultural practices around childbirth and infant feeding are harmful.

How do we un-blinker ourselves from cultural practices? With research.

If MN stopped people talking about research, I for one would be out of here like a shot. I can get all the misinformation I like in real life.