Help me draft a peace treaty

[verylittlecarrot]

I was thinking of proposing a peace treaty, for all of us, regardless of how we feed our babies. Something like:

We, the undersigned, agree the following;

• We shall phrase our words with care and sensitivity, always remembering how powerfully feelings run on infant feeding, and that vulnerable people may read those words and be genuinely wounded by them.

• We do not believe that other people are inferior because their choices differ from ours.

• We shall welcome open and frank discussion of facts, evidence based research and statistics on risks and benefits of formula feeding and breastfeeding. We shall not attempt to suppress discussion of the facts, nor shall we deny the research exists.

• We accept that it is every woman's right to have facts and information available to her about the way she feeds her baby.

• We shall not judge each other on our feeding choices.

• We will try to be kind, and compassionate at all times, accepting the colourful variety of choices that we all make as parents as the expression of us each finding our own way though motherhood.

• We shall refrain from extrapolating our own individual experience into universal truth; just because it worked for me does not mean it will be harmless for someone else. We will be careful not to advise others to take an action without offering them understanding of the risks involved.

• We shall not bear false witness; we shall not falsely claim that others hate formula; nor that they believe it is evil, or that it is akin to poison, if they have said no such thing.

• We shall not accuse others of "making formula feeders feel guilty or bad"; if the discussion has been non-judgemental we shall accept it as such.

• We shall not resort to stereotypes and name calling; formula feeders are not selfish, breastfeeders are not militant or smug.

so - any wordsmiths out there? Feel free to add to, subtract from, or generally reword this to make it seem like a bunch of principles something people would want to agree to on the feeding forum.

Voluntary sign up, obv!

i am a bit baffled by this thread! all the big words etc.
vlc - hiya, how is lo? are you still feeding?
tik tok- could have still bf my toddler stopped him getting gastro bug?
slim22- hiya babe how are things with you?
see this is what mn is really about having loads of people who care about you who can give you benefit of thier advice and facts and experiences.

I think this is a great idea however I have a problem with the "research" issue. People are constantly quoting "research" which is consistently being updated, it's pointless quoting anything unless it's research advocated by the gov and in gov guidelines. They sift through the masses of research claims and then give out those which are reliable and currant.

Any Tom Dick or Harry can set up a university and do some research I don't think it's fair for any of us to be expected to go with research that hasn't been verified by the gov. I also don't want to have to take on board views from other websites which a lot of pro breast feeding members like to quote regularly.

I do think this idea is a jolly good step forward though and might actually help both sides of the camp. We could all learn something.

sorry Mila but you're talking rot about research again.

Any tom dick or harry can set up a university...?

What the government is listen to the best guidance of experienced researchers funded by properly accountable and ethical bodies. No, anybody cannot start up a university.

The standards for good research are not, actually, 'verified by govt' although the govt do often refer to gold standard research.

The standard for good research is properly sampled and weighted studies, repeated over time, reviewed by peer experts in the field and published in independent journals. Even better than this is the meta-study which summarises findings over a number of years and approaches. Even govts aren't often as accurate and uptodate as the best scientists with the right methodologies; in fact govts often lag behind good science by some years.

Which means that voluntary organisation and campaign organisations do often have access to better science than the govt and indeed the general public precisely because they make it their business to find out what the science says.

The rejection of proper research on this thread is baffling and I suspect more about how threatening people find it to have their prejudices challenged.

insert do after government...

MilaMae, I am a researcher, although my field has nothing to do with feeding babies.

I consider myself very lucky because I have the training in research methods, statistics etc which allows me to read a paper (for example on breastfeeding) and "read between the lines" a bit. ie, I'm in a slightly better position than most to make a call on whether a study is good or not. I don't have to blindly accept the conclusions of the study authors.

So in fact I don't pay much attention to government endorsement of research - I prefer to read the papers myself and make my own judgement. I'm sceptical of governments as they have an obvious political agenda. The World Health Organisation, on the other hand, is very sound and impartial and I pay a lot of attention to what they say.

So I strongly disagree with your idea that we should only quote government-approved research. I find that quite patronising, actually - as if we can't possibly make our minds up for ourselves.

I also think that if you "don't want to have to take on board views from other websites" you're severely limiting your access to good information.

I strongly believe we should be open to all ideas - even ones that seem ridiculous at first - because by examining a wide range of ideas you're much more likely to find the right ones than by closing off your mind before you even start.

No need to be so unpleasant Wilfsell.

You could have explained all of the above without the first line.

So how are we supposed to know which is good and which isn't? I don't always automatically believe everything I'm told in any subject not just this one.

And I'm soooo wishing I could just run off and start a university and make up my own research......

The maj of us can't read papers in the same way though Wellie so what do we rely on?

Well, that's a very good question, MilaMae. There's no one easy answer.

I mentioned WHO in my previous post: They are very reliable. They tend to cherry-pick the best experts in each field, so when you read a consensus statement from a panel of WHO experts, you know that they will have brought a wide range of knowledge and expertise to bear.

The other thing about WHO is that they are interested in health first and foremost - as opposed to governments, which are mainly interested in getting re-elected. Governments want us to be healthy because that's cheaper - but our health isn't their first concern.

Another way of getting a better view of research is - as we're discussing on this very thread - to discuss it amongst ourselves. We're intelligent people and we can often find out what we need to know without being experts.

I'm no expert but I have, as I said, a bit of training in reading research papers and I'm always happy to share that on MN. I'm not the only one - there are plenty of scientists about.

Of course, there are no guarantees of getting it right, no answers at the back of the book. We're all having to make judgements without access to the full facts. But I think we can get quite a long way by sharing ideas and opinions on here. I really admire MN for that.

The question of research aside - on which I agree with welliemum - I really don't think I've ever seen an advocate of attachment parenting-type practices (this meant as a convenient catch-all term) claim they are what 'good mothers' or 'real mothers' do. IME this sort of judginess tends to be pulled up on pretty fast on MN. If, however, the research is saying that some practices are beneficial, then that is more than an opinion IM(!)O. It has to be okay to say, for example, 'ff has [proven] risks', which as a fact implies nothing about any individuals who might ff.

vlc - lovely idea.

Thanks for that, I've learnt something. Would sticking to WHO consensus statements when quoting research be a good way forward then?

I think sticking to WHO consensus statements would be a very safe way forward - ie you'd be unlikely to go wildly astray - but it would be quite limiting too, because WHO don't do a lot of these. They take up an enormous amount of time and resources, so they tend only to do this for very big issues.

So there would be quite a few issues where WHO haven't offically said anything, and you would still need to make a decision. For example, you might read about a new bit of research in the news on a topic that's relevant to your child. Straight away you want to know: could they be right? Should I change what I'm doing?

I think there'll always be a place for discussing individual research papers - always with a sceptical eye and a pinch of salt.

Liked your last line re other research papers.

It does grate a litlle when links are flashed up as the gospel truth and we the reader are just supposed to take it all on board whatever or we get accused of burying our head in the sand. You'd never be expected to do that anywhere else.

I don't have the time to check out sources(spend far to much time on here as it is). If they were presented with more of a sceptical eye and pinch of salt I personally wouldn't get so irritated and would be more open to the info being shared.

The WHO thing is well worth knowing-thanks.

Off to bed now

I need to go too - night!

Another good source of research is to check the Cochrane database, and also NICE.

All on the web.

Apologies MilaMae, my first sentence was unpleasant and dismissive. I was feeling particularly riled that night by the breast v bottle wars that were going on on 4 different fronts in one day.

Stepped over the line (again ).

Don't worry, it was late and my post was written it in a bit of a clumsy /blunt way if the truth be told(was knackered).

It was quite a day in the breast v bottle debate

I think a peace treaty is a jolly good idea and I just wanted to say I think you could also add something along the lines of...

• I promise to always keep a sense of humour about it all where possible!

That's all...