who *isn't* ashamed to admit using formula?

[LookingForwardToSummer]

feeling crap after reading the 'exclusive breastfeeding' thread! i find bf really hard and have set myself the target of 5 months, i intend to feel very proud that i went that long and then use formula happily! i can't be the only one! all the stats show low bf rates - so where is everyone?

LFTS

... although I think I might be the only person on MN who doesn't really understand all that centile business...

sorry redadmiral, the other post further down was to LFTS, not you, that's why you wouldn't have known what i meant. and LFTS, i think saying 'aitch, who's peed on your cornflakes' is snidey, and the rest. clearly you aren't shocked by that as she said peed and not pissed but i thought it was unneccessarily bitchy.

and no, the other thread was just an ordinary thread, out of interest welliemum wanted to know who hadn't given their children formula. that was it. i read the OP, realised it didn't concern me and left it. there was no compunction to self-justify, it was a straw poll and i didn't fit the criteria.

thought 'peed in your cornflakes' was rather funny actually, inventive rather than offensive.

righto, well you clearly have a great sense of humour so who am i to argue?

riven- ds3 had reflux as well and that got a bit better. Mainly though he just 'switched on' - began pointing and talking and passed the CHAT test within weeks. It was the same sort of reaction as when we took ds1 off gluten. I suspect for the same reasons (leaky guts etc). It was quite dramatic.

tiktok I did encounter a MW in hospital this time round who told me in no uncertain terms that 'it will affect breastfeeding' if I gave dd2 a bottle to settle at night after another emergency cesarian. She made me feel like I would fail. I ignored the advice because I was very emotional and knackered. If I had continued to bf all night which is how it was going, I would have given up completely. As it was my dd2 then slept for 6hrs, as did I, and we regrouped in the morning and have bf ever since. The trouble is that HCPs tend to be biased one way or the other and what needs to happen is for them to explain the problems that could arise, but also say in a kindly way that if you feel its what you need to do then its the right thing for you iyswim.

btw tori re formula being work of devil etc i did actually see that some moron has posted that it's evil on the other thread (and been stomped on royally ). so you weren't seeing things at all!

and i don't suppose that all HCPS are good at their jobs, in fact there was a thread recently where a midwife said she'd only had a few days' training as a student and wasn't required to attend 2-day courses every three years (although she did). that's why it's so difficult being the mum in that situation, you don't know who to trust and the repercussions are for you and your child alone in the end.

Right, now for some attempt at links.
This link www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1717268 explains the effects of infant development with mothers who have PND.

This link medic8.com/healthguide/articles/postnataldepression.html explains that tiredness is one of the key contributing factors in PND.
It doesn't take a sciantist to know that if someone is breast feeding an infant all day and lots during the night and getting little rest, that they will be tired. This is what happened to me the first time I tried bf. DD1 fed every hour for 30 mins, vomited after lots of feeds and would then be hungry and needed feeding again. This went on until she was 5wks. I was exhausted and got PND.

tori, I am a bit irritated that you seem not to have read my posts
(though congrats on your superb linking )

I am well aware of the links between tiredness and PND and the links between PND and infant mental health and development.

You now have to prove that bf mothers are generally speaking consistently more tired than ff mothers - and while of course on an individual level, individual mothers may be, and/or tired on occasions, this cannot be extrapolated to a general truth.

Which is what you tried to do.

What you describe as happening on the postnatal ward was rubbish midwifery care, poorly individualised and harsh, too. There are ways to support bf, and mums, in hospital, and to allow them both to get rest.

tori, you are drawing a link to your bfing your first and PND. From earlier posts, you have described what sounds like poor attachment was responsible for some of the stresses and difficulties you had with breastfeeding your own. It sounds like those issues went unresolved until the time you decided to ff.

I would conclude that it was the lack of effective breastfeeding and appropriate bf advice from those who were supporting you postnatally, rather than breastfeeding itself which may have contributed largely to to your PND? that sounds entirely reasonable to me.

Hi Aitch,

Your post is a fair summing up of what happened, and I actually take full responsibility for my decisions.

I did what I could at the time, and I think I got advice that TBH wasn't great, but that's life.

Like you, I am concerned when I see other women getting advice which I think ignores certain potential risks.

It hinges on the fact that it is as yet undecided at what stage there should be a concern about slow weight gain in exclusively breastfed infants. As Tiktok said ,it's a grey area, but from some of the bf support threads you would think it is completely harmless that babies are dropping a couple of centiles, or gaining weight very slowly. I'm just trying to question that idea with people who are pretty knowledgable about infant feeding, and TBH, forgetting the 'ers' yesterday, I feel that the response I'm getting is a bit negative, which is why I thought that it was an uncomfortable subject for pro bfers. Hope that explains something....

PS, I am not anti bf BTW.

And I found Domperidone a bit neither nor, TBH....

oh it definitely made a difference to me but i only got it at 6 weeks and i'd been topping-up for yonks by that point so it was a bit late. next time, though. (actually that's how i feel about my bfing exp, that's why i refuse to be ashamed etc, because while i might still regret giving dd milk quite so early without having tried domperidone etc, it was my decision at the end of the day so i suck it up, iykwim?)

as i said, i'm not expert wrt bfing so i don't give advice on the bfing threads, but i've definitely sounded a note of caution on those threads where people are poo-poohing advice re centiles, simply because a pal of mine (a doctor, funnily enough) needed to be investigated for malabsorption problems and one of the cluues that said pal had ignored was that her son had dropped centiles at an otherwise alarming rate.

Here's hoping you'll be fine if there is a next time. Chances are you will be.

thanks, i do hope so.

redadmiral, you are talking to me when you say this "it is as yet undecided at what stage there should be a concern about slow weight gain in exclusively breastfed infants. As Tiktok said ,it's a grey area, but from some of the bf support threads you would think it is completely harmless that babies are dropping a couple of centiles, or gaining weight very slowly. "

My dd dropped through the centiles, and then off the charts, waaaaaay off the bottom. At birth she was about 7lb (inaccurate scales) and at 6 months she weighed only 9lb 10.

I think that's probably the most extreme example of a slow gaining baby, right?

I excl bf for those 6 months. I will always wonder whether doing so was "completely harmless" to her. I looked back at some Xmas photos of her and she was so very skinny. Guilt is not the exclusive preserve of the formula feeder.

A few months on, I have a new perspective, and insofar as I can observe her health - I see a hugely happy and healthy baby, strong and feisty as she ever was. She's chubbier now, but otherwise no different really. Course, I'll never know what damage might have been caused if she really was suffering from inadequate nutrition to grow properly.

I want to see research that assesses this risk. I don't want to hide from the truth, even if it's painful to read. Can you share with me what you referred to earlier in the thread, please?

Hello vlc. No, I wasn't talking about anyone except myself. Glad to hear your daughter is doing well.

I can't reference the most direct description of the potential problems with catchup growth as I saw it in a book in a local boookshop when DD1 was less than a year, and she's nearly 9 now, so I can't remember the title.

Basically it said that infants who don't get enough nutrition when they are developing may not grow as fast, but they will catch up later. The problem was that for some reason the growth they did later wasn't quite as good.

Basically I just used this as another stick to beat myself with, especially as she was above the 50th centile at birth, and then after what I perceived as the initial setback, she was the smallest child of her age group any time we went out - I used to compare her mentally measure her height against everyone we met!!

I looked it up a while ago after seeing someone post about a very slow gaining baby like mine was. There are no definite studies that I saw that relate to breastfeeding, slow weight gain and later problems in life. Good news! There are studies which seem to think that retarded growth in the womb followed up by catchup growth can cause problems in later life like heart disease etc. Possible theories are that when nourishment is short the growing foetus 'prioritises' some development over others.

There was a study about children on an island where maternal nutrition was poor, and I think some infants didn't have enough food, which led to stunted growth or catch up growth, which again, wasn't such a great thing. I posted some links which I will try to find again now, but TBH I think it would be scaremongering, as it isn't a clearcut issue like some of the bf stats - really it's just me flagging up some slightly unnerving results, but really there's to enough to base any judgements on. The thing that I do find very reassuring is the thought that I'm sure the formula manufacturors will be aware of most feeding research issues, and I would have thought would have jumped on this one if it had much scientific evidence behind it.

To conclude my epic - it was something that worried me - a lot - for quite a long time, but I really don't think there's enough evidence for you to really be concerned yet.

Sorry misread your post as 'are you talking to me?' V. tired.

and 'really there's not enough to base any judgements on.'

thanks red. (I knew you weren't talking to me, I just meant you hit a bullseye as far as my concerns go personally )

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I console myself with the thought that nature might cock up occasionally, but in general it designs us to be pretty robust, and capable of weathering a few storms. I figure that a lowish calorie intake is one of those things that we are likely to have been designed to withstand, so long as it isn't too severe. I hope.

I do sometimes wonder whether my story, and Aitch's (forgive me Aitch) are flip sides of the same coin. We were both desperate to bf, and possibly (who knows?) may have had lowish supply. But I had more support and encouragement, and certainly less crappy advice and interference. Her perseverance and struggle really hit a nerve with me, and her feelings which she has bravely shared give me somewhat of a lump in my throat. I can see how I could so easily have had the same outcome, given similar circumstances. I excl bf, yes, but I do feel worried that dd paid a price for it. I just hope the trade off was worth it in the grand scheme of things.

Aitch, I sincerely wish you a completely successful bf relationship next time round.

I switched to formula at 7/8 weeks. Was made to feel so guilty but my daughter was never off the breast. Was frightened that I would never get out, but primarily that she seemed so unhappy and screamed when not on breast with next to no sleep.
Switching to formula we saw an instant change in our gorgeous girl, she had awake time with no crying - we were able to enjoy her toys, sing with her, stimulate her, go to baby massage etc. Her dad got lovely cuddles as did two very doting grandparents.
xxx

Me and no shame whatsoever. Produced no milk and nearly totally dehydrated ds1 as a result. Thank god for formula - it saved his life and my sanity.

Yes, I agree nature is pretty robust and adaptable.

Thinking about it it is pretty amazing that babies can even thrive on milk from other species - in a way you would expect to find more glaring differences between babies fed on human milk and those fed on cows or goats milk, let alone plant-based formulas.

No help really, but I've found that my concerns re infant feeding have been overtaken by new things at every stage of my childrens' development, from air quality from living near a busy road, to not educating them privately (another great indicator for longterm health ) to whether they are stressed at school, and so on, until they start messing with smoking, I guess, or have kids of their own with the consequent feeding issues again!!!

alipiggie was just about to post the same - I thought DS was a natural at BF but he was admitted to hospital at 2 weeks old with Hypothermeia. It was only later that a doctor told me that it was caused by dehydration. I was so that the 'breast is best' mantra was more important than explaining to me that DS needed more fluid.

I was determined to try again with DD but was so paranoid that she wasn't getting anything that I switched to formula very early.