Advice needed for Mum who wants to give colostrum but intro bottle early on...

[Looby34]

Hi. I had a truly awful experience bf'ing my first and vowed I would not do it if I had another.

My 2nd is due in 2 weeks and while I know I don't want to bf long term, I would like to give my baby colostrum at the start. As soon as my milk comes in I plan to give at least one bottle a day, increasing this as the days go by until I stop bf'ing altogether around 10 days or so after giving birth.

My thinking is that I hopefully won't end up with mastitis as my milk won't ever have got well established.

Does anyone have experience of doing something similar or any advice on my 'plan'?

I have no intention of feeding long term so would be really grateful for advice rather than questions about why. Thanks.

Hi. I can only tell you my experience, but not advice...
DD is 3 weeks old and I have been giving her breastmilk and formula. (I also didn't have a great experience bf'ing my DS, who on top of that refused to take a bottle).
Putting her to the breast has been painful for me so I have been mostly expressing using an electric pump. When my milk came in, my breasts were so full DD couldn't latch on and expressing really helped.
On days when I haven't had the opportunity to do it as much as I've intended, my supply has gone down without pain (which can then be increased the following day by really going for it).
I'm not sure about avoiding the pain of when the milk comes in - even when I had my SB son my milk came in and I was in agony.

I've found the electric pump SOOO much better and more comfortable than a hand-held one, that I will probably give her more breastmilk now that I would have done if I'd done bf'ing only.
Good luck with the birth!

My only advice is to make sure you get proper help and advice on your latch from the get go even if you only plan to bf for a few days - ensuring good positioning and milk transfer will help to avoid engorgement and mastitis. It should help you avoid discomfort as much as possible and then you can decide how to scale things down without being in pain, hopefully. I fed pretty frequently and think we had a good latch too, so in the early days I managed to avoid getting painful boobs, luckily. I hope you find it pain free too this time around!

I'm not equipped to help with the best way to scale down, but hopefully someone else will be along soon.

Well done on your decision to give colostrum, especially after a previous rough experience. That takes guts. Good luck with the birth!

thanks ladies. i appreciate the support

bump - is there anyone else who can help me. i could really do with your help.

Looby, this is a hard one to 'engineer',and while I think you'd be unlucky to get mastitis, I do think you're gonna have to expect some engorgement and discomfort, which you'll have to 'play by ear'. What I mean is, don't be too set on 10 days maximum for bf (you say 'around' 10 days or so, so that's good) as you might have to wind down more gradually than that.

Gentle hand expressing might relieve feelings of fullness but you'll have to keep that to a minimum or else you'll be telling your body to make more milk.

Your midwives at home should be able to help you adjust what you are doing day by day.

It's a real shame your first experience was so bad

Hi Tiktok - dd's birth was v difficult, long and ending in shoulder distocia (McRoberts to get her out) after failed ventouse and forceps. I don't think I bonded with her in the early days. Just used to look at her lying in her basket feeling very anxious. This made the demands of bf'ing more difficult than they would ordinarily have been and I feared for my mental state giving up after 3 weeks of not enjoying being a mother at all.

My thoughts with this imininent birth is that I'll see how the delivery goes and how I am left feeling afterwards - then decide whether to try bf'ing. I kind of feel that for me, if I don't even try I will feel bad about that - hence my plan to try, but phase out quite quickly. I said 10 days because this is when my husband goes back to work and I am concerned about bf'ing with my toddler around. You can take a bottle in and out of a baby's mouth if you need to - whereas latching and delatching will be painful !! I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to feed for long anyway - I feel really switched off it after my experience last time, so it isn't just about my toddler. I really want to enjoy those early days that I missed out on last time.

I don't really trust midwives because of the advice I was given last time. In a nutshell, I got engorged and having hated feeding from the start anyway, decided to stop suddenly - even though I knew this would be more painful than stopping gradually. My midwife told me the following: Your milk has to be absorped into your blood as it has nowhere else to go and this is like a toxin in your blood. Stay away from the baby as hearing her cry will make you keep producing milk. No fluids allowed or your milk will keep being produced (I was permitted an ice cube every 4 hours with ibuprofen). Basically I was in bed for 3 days with really bad flu symptoms while my husband looked after the baby. (i don't think this was mastitis as I didn't have any marks on my breasts - these only appeared a few weeks later, with no pain).

I'd like to know there was someone I could trust to answer questions/give advice/make suggestions as things happen.

Also - should I have asked the Dr for antibio's when I stopped last time because I wasn't told I could have them by that midwife ?

thanks kama

Looby - I am not surprised you are disllusioned by midwives if that was the advice you were given. 'Stay away from the baby' - aaaaaagh. 'No fluids' - aaaaaargh. 'No antibiotics' - aaaarrrgh.

Seriously, this is a real disgrace. She was right about not stopping suddenly, though. It sounds like mastitis, too - the marks on the breast don't always appear.

Latching and delatching are not painful - or shouldn't be. Kama's tip is the way to do it.

I can understand that when you are anxious, breastfeeding can seem a massive hurdle, and make the anxiety worse.

However, it's good you have both a plan and an open mind about it Breastfeeding can be a way to overcome anxiety - many women find their confidence, and their closeness to their baby, grow with it.

You might be helped by finding a breastfeeding counsellor you can trust and whom you like. Breastfeeding counsellors do not judge, they don't try to persuade you to breastfeed, and they aim to help you have the experience that's best and most comfortable for you. You can ring any of the helplines, and see if you can arrange to speak to someone in the days around the birth as often as you want, so you can bounce ideas off her.

A trained breastfeeding counsellor will certainly be better informed than the midwife you spoke to

I had real problems with engorgement when starting feeding and found the best thing was some breast shells as even with hand expressing I couldn't get enough milk off to let DD latch on and it was incredibly painful!

The shells really helped because they let off a bit of milk which could also be collected and that relieved the engorgement a bit but not so that I was stimulated to make much more. I had such a horrible experience I ended up mixed feeding, although my BM was down to about 2 oz at each feed after a couple of weeks so if I missed a feed it didn't particularly matter IYSWIM. Good luck

Thanks Tiktok and Littlestbadger for your advice. Can I ask another question ?

Should you try to give some milk from both breasts at each feed ? I just used to offer one, which she would drain (it took 40 minutes). And then the other breast at the next feed. Don't know why - noone told me anything - this is just what I did. It worked well until one day she only fed for 5 minutes and I didn't then know what to do at the next feed because that side hadn't been drained to the extent it was used to - but I thought the other side would be engorged if I didn't put her on that side the next time (if that makes sense).

Also, with my nipple in her mouth she used to headbutt my breast. Why ? I wasn't holding her head in a way that restricted her sucking....

Looby - you should have been told it is crucial to offer both breasts at each feed at least at the start and actually, for many weeks after unless you are sure the baby never takes the other side (most babies will take some from both at the beginning) and that doing what you did - only offering one - in the early days does two things i) predisposes to engorgement and mastitis in the short term ii) reduces the supply in the medium to long term

Headbutting can be a sign the baby needs a more comfortable and effective position. Someone who knew what to do would have helped you take her off and enable her to reattach.

good grief - it looks like i wasn't given ANY good advice ! i'm astounded she fed as well as she did. if you don't know how long baby is going to feed for, how do you know how long to give on each side ? what do you recommend tiktok ? if you're switching sides, do they ever get the hind milk ??

i think if some professionals hear you say baby is latched on and feeding OK and they are gaining weight, they don't bother intervening.

i stopped suddenly because that day she only fed for 5 minutes I ended up engorged and the midwive was squeezing my nipple so hard to try and get some milk out so dd could get latched on i was crying with pain and just felt absolutely miserable

Looby, your story just gets worse

There is no place for the clock in infant feeding - the baby decides for himself when to stop feeding on each side, and part of getting bf going is learning to read the baby's behaviour so you know when and if to take him off.

To time a baby makes as much sense as me timing you, and only 'allowing' you a certain amount of time with your risotto before whisking it away from you! The hindmilk is not an issue, believe me - the baby does not have to 'drill down' to it

I have posted already this morning about this

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/1364/517647

For most people, using both breasts several times in 24 hours is important to ensure good stimulation of the breastmilk production line.

Nipples should never, ever be squeezed - it's not effective as a means of getting milk out, and it hurts! The 'sweet spots' for getting milk out are about 1.5 - 2 ins away from the end of the nipple and respond not to squeezing but gentle compression.

tiktok, i don't understand. you've said baby decides for herself how long to feed on each side but it was dd who used to feed on one side for 40 minutes then stop and quite happily sleep for 4 hours til she wanted anymore (at least I was lucky with the baby !)- so then I naturally put her on the other side .... i don't know what to do for this best this time....

you can probably tell i'm someone who likes to have a bit of a plan - and why, being someone who likes to have a plan - and everything going wrong last time, i'm asking lots of questions this time around. i want to give my baby a good start but not at the cost of my sanity !!

thanks i'll look at your link re hindmilk...

hi kama - i don't know whether i just don't have very sensitive breasts or what but mine didn't really feel full or empty at any time - plus i never got this 'letdown' that women refer to.

i could only really tell which side to feed on next by having a bracelet that i passed from wrist to wrist at the end of each feed.

are you saying that i can/should switch from side to side at will, during the course of a breastfeed ?

i'm afraid i'm just one of these people (probably a control freak) who always like a plan - for everything in life, not just breastfeeding. i tried to 'go with the flow' last time and it seems i was being given alsorts of bad advice - making me even more adamant that i need more of a plan this time

Looby, I would be very concerned about a new baby who regularly sleeps for four hours....that's not normal, and indicates the baby is not getting enough calories to wake and 'ask' for more milk. Being on the breast 40 mins is fine, but of course not if the baby is not transferring milk effectively. (There are only a very few babies for whom such infrequent feeding - in your case, it was effectively one breast every five hours - would be ok. The mum of a baby who sleeps and feeds like this is not 'lucky' at all....it's a recipe for early cessation of breastfeeding )

When breastfeeding is going well, the baby can be trusted to set his own pattern, but if breastfeeding is not going well, then the mum has to intervene to fix it.

happy to answer any more questions, and I am not surprised it all seems a scary thing for you to contemplate...

to be honest what you've said has freaked me out because my daughter had a healthy weight gain, which can surely only be because she WAS getting sufficient calories

i counted myelf as 'lucky' because she seemed to be feeding well, settling with no issues and sleeping for a good length of time between feeds - wh wouldn't be grateful ?? because i didn't know any different, i assumed this was because she was getting enough.

in my case the early cessation of breast feeding was because one day she only fed for 5 minutes which left me engorged and i decided to stop suddenly. me stopping isn't because of the way my daughter fed.

i am now feeling worse than i did before i started this thread. not only do i not know what to do for the best this time, but you're saying my daughters feeding pattern, which i had thought was good - was in some way unnatural. the only small thing i had felt confident about is now being questioned.

it is no wonder people don't breast feed. if i was a mum to be and read this thread - i'd be completely confused. going with the pattern the baby sets, like i did doesn't seem to be the right thing to have done !!!

Aw, Looby, I am really sorry if anything I have said has upset you. I didn't say there was anything 'unnatural' about your daughter's feeding (not a nice word!!) but I explained why it is not normal for new babies to feed and sleep in this pattern, and indeed it isn't...for a very few babies it will be ok, but the majority of babies regularly sleeping for four hours after one breast, are not doing well, and that's not my opinion, or a whim, it just is.

Maybe your baby was one of the few - and if she was thriving on this pattern, then it would seem so

You're angry about what happened to you when you were given such poor support, and that's totally understandable. I now look up previous threads where you say you still feel bitter about your experience, and that's an understandable response, too.

But it's not fair to take your bitterness out on me. I am sharing what I know, in response to your questions. You had crappy help with bf, you were manhandled into stopping, you did not have good information.

Not my fault

tiktok - i am bitter, but the desire to give my baby the best start, despite my experience makes me want to ask all these questions.

if you read back through this thread you'll see i was grateful for all your advice and didn't show any bitterness, up to the point you said my daughters feeding pattern wasn't normal (normal/unatural it's just semantics).

i'm sure you can see i'm in a fragile position here. i'm 38 weeks pregnant and in a quandry about feeding - i am then told my first dd's feeding pattern was 'not normal' and i wasn't 'lucky' - the only 2 things i felt positive about. sometimes i feel you give textbook answers rather than tailoring them to the woman who's asking. nowhere in my thread did i say my dd was losing weight but you suggested that 4 hourly feeds meant she wasn't getting enough calories ??!!

i'm sorry - i'm not having a go but i'm telling you you've knocked an already shaky confidence. i was in 2 minds whether to try and bf but i am getting more confused as these posts go on.

Looby, there is a big difference between normal and unnatural, and that's why I chose the word normal.

I was speaking generally about newborn babies - generally, a new baby who is feeding five hourly on one side will simply not be getting sufficient calories. I said there were a few who would be.

It's horrible to be in your sensitive situation, and this is one of the drawbacks of a talkboard - how can I possibly know the ins and outs of your own particular situation? I am really sorry if I caused you distress about the breastfeeding you did do That's because I didn't have the full facts and could not be expected to.

You wanted information to help you have a plan - this was your original reason for posting, and you reiterated it at least once. Part of having a plan is to know what to expect with breastfeeding, and I tried to help with that.

I didn't do a good job, and I am sorry.

looby I am a person who likes to always have a plan and then a contingency in case that doesn't work ( I am a self confessed control addict ) it would seem to me that the best way to get the kind of plan in place that you would like would be to get in touch and speak face to face with a breast feeding counsellor.

I found a great one through the NCT but my local childrens centre also gives great support.

This would eliminate confusion and also give you a good contact for the days after the birth rather than finding yourself in the thick of it and not sure who to turn to, (and giving you the opportunity to ignore crap advice which no doubt you will get again from somebody or other). It seems many health professionals still have not got a clue about breastfeeding but feel at liberty to give out the advice.

Speaking to people I have heard some real humdingers of "advice".

Tik Tok - my mate has just popped round with a Clare Byam Wood book that refers to the usual cycle of breast feeding as baby wanting a feed every 3-4 hours - so I don't now feel like my baby was that ab normal.

There seems to be lots of other good advice in there too.

Mum2oneloudbaby - it's nice to know theres someone out there like me !! I was a bit put off by the NCT as I called a phone number of theirs with a problem that needed an immediate answer, expecting to be able to speak someone straight away, but noone was there so I left a message and she called back 3 days later - after I had given up feeding !! I need a 24 hour number really so will try and seek one out. It would be better still if I can speak to someone as you say, face to face but I was never offered this at my hospital so don't know if the service exists ... thanks x

Looby - Clare Byam Cook, yes?

If you find the book helpful and reassuring, then that's fine.

Your baby was not 'abnormal' but her feeding pattern was very unusual...nothing 'wrong' with it, but most babies are not like that, just ask here

I can't really say more, Looby, sorry, except to say I hope whatever you do you have a better time of it all than last time