Right that is it after 2 years I need to stop bf - but how????

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

I have had yet another horrendous night with dd beating me up pulling at me, screaming and shouting and kicking! All because I say no if she bites/ pulls at my nipples or squeezes me - I cannot go on like this.

It makes me laugh when it is implied that extended breastfeeders are in some way 'doing it for themselves' - in my case nothing could be further from the truth certainly at the moment - I am 14wks pg, knackered, have tender nips and my dd (2 last friday) is treating me like a milking machine. I have to make allowances for the fact she has been ill lately - and I have been glad to be able to feed her through it. But her lack of understanding that when she is rough with me the feeding stops is really getting me down - she refuses to learn. In so many respects she is gentle and loving and so sweet - but she can also turn into a little bundle of anger if not getting her way on this.

It is keeping me and dh awake at night (she is co-sleeping with us at the moment). I can move her into her own room though. I need a break from breastfeeding before no.3 comes along - have fed non-stop for over 3.5 years as fed ds throughout pregnancy and tandem fed for a few months but he was not feeding much at all by then whereas dd is feeding several times a day and at night.

If you have got this far thank you as it is a bit of a rant! Any advice gratefully received.

Going to read this with interest as I am in a similar position.

Baby GoodBits is 20 months and Ihave managed to drop all feeds except middle of the night. That one is soooooo difficult to drop especially in the early hours and I'm too tired to be firm.

He is also co-sleeping with me. Mr. GoodBits has been in the spare room for over a year because of Baby GB's bad sleeping.

sorry bibmouth, I have no advice as I am going through similar myself although DD is not rough just demanding. I just wanted you to know you are not on your own in this.
I am extended BF, not through choice but because DD just wont give up, just like you I would like to know how to give up without the screaming and tears that I am sure will happen if I just refuse to BF.

oops that was meant to be bigmouth

She's not refusing to learn, sweetheart, she's just treating you as furniture, as would any opther 2 year old in the land. You don't, to her, have wants, needs or preferences, they only exist in HER head, which is why she gets so angry when the world doesn't comply.

I have real sympathy for you, you must be exhausted.

I am also in similar situation, though DD is younger (15 months) and I'm not pregnant.
She is so rough with me at times. When I bring her into bed either in the night, or morning, she is violent if she doesn't get what she wants... pinching, biting pulling hair etc. She pulls and pulls at my tops when she wants to feed from me.

Most of the time, i cope fine. As soon as she bites my nipples, it goes away, and she is put down. Just in the night, or first thing in the morning, its not so easy to do.

I did manage to get her to sleep through the night, and did not feed her if she woke. It was difficult, but I did it with type of CC, but a very gentle version from a book i read. It did work, and after 4 days, she was sleeping through until 6.30 ish, and having a nice feed then.

She has a bottle and br before bed. Br first thing, then a cup of milk with breakfast.

my main suggestion is that you drop the night feed. It was the only way for me, as i'd not slept a whole night, or anywhere near for 13 months.

We have regressed since she was poorly, then had some teeth, then poorly again, and again, now has pre molars coming in. It is exhausting when you are not getting proper sleep. I know just how you feel, and my god, if I were pregnant too, well, i don't know how i'd cope! I have a terrible back problem, and a lot of pain, so at times, it is just easier, for me to lye on the bed and feed her. Rather than getting up and down to her.

Like I say though, I did get her sleeping through, and will again, easily too, so im not that worried atm... Just want these teeth to come through. Her daytime feeds are fewer and fewer. I can't see how I can stop completely though, as like you, she is SO demanding when she wants it.
I feel like i'm going round in circles now, writing all this!
If you would like to know more about how I got her to sleep through, do ask. I won't post it unless you do. That is the only way I can think of for you though, as then, the day feeds will also lessen... well they did for Izzy.

Bigmouth - have you tried offering water?

Baby GoodBits gets a cup of milk at bed-time, if he wakes before 12.30 he gets a cuddle and put back to sleep (this is easier if Mr. GB does it). If he wakes up before 4am he has breast milk, after that he has water.

Well that's the plan anyway. Often I feed him after 4am as he is pulling at my top, headbutting, ranting etc. However 4 nights out of 7 water works after 4am.

Thank you for the input (it is suprising how many others are in similar position - I feel for you) - I have a whinging ds to deal with (dd is sweet as pie now) - but will be back to read through these all. Thank you.

Dropping the night feed is what I know I need to do and what I dread doing as I know she will fight it... big cowardly custard thats me! It is just that I hate fighting with her in the middle of the night when my resistance is low - but as I have yet to have an unbroken nights sleep since having children - I suppose some bullets have to be bitten (as opposed to my nips!!).

Oh - also susie I would also be interested to hear how you got your daughter to sleep through. I know I won't be able to do CC though.

THis is a tough one as you are so tired.

IMO it will be hard to get a 2 year old to understand that sometimes she can feed and sometimes she can't. That's a very complex thing for a child to understand as it will prob seem just random to her.

Are you and she up for the rage of going "cold turkey"?

During the day and night wear clothes you can't feed in. Dresses with no openings; tight Tshirts; pull-on sports bras you can't hoik up etc etc

During the day don't sit down if she's in the room - or sit at the table tucked in so you have no lap.

Go out a lot - loads of walks.

Tell her they're broken. I know this is a fib and will make you feel terrible when she hangs onto your leg sobbing but it worked for me. Put plasters on them?

And CC and own room at night like susie says can work amazingly quickly.

JUst because you are not going to feed her any more doesn't mean you don't love her. She will be mad with fury - but if she's 2 a whole lot of her life is like that anyway so try to make sure you don't blame yourself for the storm thst is toddlerhood arriving about now!

Hope you work something out.

Goodbits - CC doesn't have to be cruel and prolonged. You can adapt it to your sensitivities.

Put LO down in cot; say night night; leave; child roars; count to 10; go back in; don't pick up; pat & soothe; say night night; leave; child roars...ad infinitum!

You don't leave them alone to panic and cry. You go back in and are kind. In the end the message gets through.

I know I have to be strong re his sleeping, and the thought of CC has always scared me a little. I thought the baby had to be left for a certain length of time to cry.

I'll have to build myself up to it before I try your suggestion, though it sounds a gentler way. Thanks.

It does sound like the night feeding is understandably too much. Have you considered trying to night weaning only...i.e. Offer cup of water at night and breastfed during the day ? You might find without the battles at night, nursing during the day might be an acceptable solution for you both.

The other thing to consider is nursing manners...your little one is old enough to learn how to nurse in a way that doesn't hurt or upset you.
Kellymom's Advice on Nursing Mannners

Good Luck

Here is an LLL webpage full of mothers with a similar problem to yourself called 'Fiddling the night away'

GB - it's not build yourself up - it's reach rock bottom !

The stage where you know if you don't change something you will go insane and do something horrible like shouts "why the hell won't you go to sleep" at some poor little baby .

Key point - don't start until you know you will see it through. Not fair to be strict for a night or two and then give up - just teaches dc that adults are unpredictable and if you scream REALLY loudly you DO get your own way!

Here is how I did CC... like I say, its not as harsh as all the other methods I've read. And, unlike gagarin, you do pick them up. This was the key to success for us. As she was SO distraught that I was not cuddling her. I coudln't do it either. I could not go in, see her so upset, and fight my instincts to soothe her. It really does work, and fast too. Forget all the other types of CC especially, if you can't stand the thought of them. I think to call it CC is misleading i this method, but the Dr who devised it, does, so I will! Just set aside one week ( you will not need that long, trust me ) arrange with your DH that htis is the week you will do it... They also really need to be in a room that you are not sleeping in...

You need to be prepared for it, and the first night, or two, is difficult, as it takes time. So, before I went to bed, I set up the tv, comfy chair, magazine and note pad and pen, and digital clock - the most important bit.

Decide before you start, how long you are happy to leave LO to cry for, without going in. Any length of time you like. I chose 3 minutes.

SO, here it is...

You hear your LO wake up, and start to cry etc. Look at the clock, and time 3 minutes, exactly. ( I got up straight away, and sat in front room, so I didn't fall asleep- this was really important, as I tried the week before, and kept falling asleep, which messes it up... )

At 3 minutes, go into your LO. pick them up, comfort, cuddle, kiss, talk, what ever you need ( not FEED ) to get them to stop crying ad settle again. This can take as long as it takes, even if its 20 minutes, if thats how ling it takes to settle them without feeding, then so be it. ( my first night the first time of waking, it took 25 minutes! ) As soon as they stop crying and are settled, put them back in bed. Say night night, or whatever you want to say, and LEAVE the room. Trust me, they will scream, shout cry etc... keep going, walk out of the door ad don't look back or hesitate.

Sit down, time exactly the same again, and add on 2 extra minutes. even if they are crying etc, don't go back for 5 miutes this time. or how ever many minutes you started on ,plus 2.

GO back in at 5 ( or whatever amount ) minutes, repeat... cuddle, soothe, pat, kiss, ( DON'T FEED ) Put them back in ed when not crying. Leave....

Time a further 7 minutes.. and so on....

I wrote down the times each time of waking. then wrote down the time it was when I left, so I could see how long it was taking to settle each time, so I could see an improvement, ad that it was working! you don't have to write it down, but having done it without writing it down, and without getting out of bed initially, it works much better if you get up, are wide awake, and write it down. Much easier.

The key, apparently, according to the Dr who devised this particualr variation on it, is the strict timing. You are increasing very gradually, so for you, and your LO, its not so difficult. not such a huge shock to the system. Well, I say that, you would have thought I was murdering her the noise she made the first time I went in and left without her... bless her. I felt horrible to begin with, but after 2 times of going in, i noticed I was staying with her for a shorter time each time.

So to try and sum it up:

Decide the first amount of time you are happy for them to cry for. ( can be as little as 30 seconds, or as long as you like. )
GO in, settle LO until they are not crying. Pick up, cuddle, rock, sing, stroke, what ever it takes.
Leave and add on 2 minutes to original timing.
return after correct time. repeat....

So the first night was the hardest for us. I went in and out 5 times, it lasted almost an hour and half.
Second night, I went i 4 times, but only took half an hour
Third night, went in twice, lasted 10 minutes max.

I all the time, she didn't cry for more than 5 minutes without me with her. She would cry as soon as I left the room, and never cried, o any of the timing for more than 5 minutes. She'd settle down again, then start just as the time was up, so i'd of course need to go back in!

it felt very gentle, ad also went with my instincts. I've always known its ok to let them cry for a bit, but had never wanted to let her for long. This method does just that.

It was in a book called Toddler Taming, by Dr Christopher Green. I now love this man, he restored my life back to normal... almost!!!

Any other questions about it, please do ask! Hope its really clear though, what I've written.
HTH?

Sorrym that should read IN all the time we were doing it, she didn't cry for more than 5 minutes...

Oh, also, 5 minutes when you are timing it, at first feels like a very long time... then it starts to feel like a very short time. really odd!

Gagarin - not rock bottom in the morning, but after an hour of baby not falling asleep at night is certainly rock bottom. And yes I have screamed 'why the f* can you not fall asleep like other babies!'

So I def need to do something.

Thanks susie for your suggestion - that's the bit of CC i don't like - leaving them to cry.

I think I might try a combination of the two methods here. Mr GB is away for work next week so that might be a good time to try it. As I can sit in the spare room which is closer to baby's room than my bedroom.

Sorry bigmouth - I seem to have unintentionally hijacked your thread.

No worries Itsnotonly Good luck with getting your ds off the night feed.

I am not into the cc methods - any leaving the child to cry is too much for me - but I did use rapid return with ds when he was a little older than dd is now and it worked after a couple of weeks and he is great now. But by that time he was going to sleep without a feed and not waking fopr feeds he was just unable to sleep without me or dh in the room leading to long uncomfortable periods on the floor of his room waiting to be able to creep out of the door. We had perfected the art of ignoring him until he fell asleep (after stories/ hugs etc.) So just had the last hurdle of sleeping alone to get over. Rapid return meant we spent a long time sitting on the stairs putting ds back to bed after he got up and just saying night night - time to sleep (without eye contact). It is so true that you have to be sure that you are going to see it through as it is hard.

However with dear dd she is not yet sleeping all night in her own room, she is still feeding and still very physically attached to me - I can't see us going from that to rapid return to her own room/ bed easily (or at least it is going to take months).

The thing is, you can't always be with them straight away if they cry can you? When I think about time's i'm in the bath, or, washing up, or doing things that have to get done, if she cries, I can't go immediately to her.

When you are asleep and they wake up and cry, if in another room, especially, you don't register they are crying immediately, it takes a few minutes for you to realise they are crying, get up ad go to them...

I felt just the same as you do, honestly I did, the thought of deliberately leaving her to cry, felt horrible.

My mum pointed out to me, that by being SO chronically tired all the time, was not helping my relationship with my DD at all, She was not getting the best of me etc... it put it into perspective too, when she also suggested I think about the times in the day isobel cries. She even suggested timing it. It was not far off tbh. especially if I was in the bath or had my hands in the washing up .

I've just read the kellymom links. So brilliant to find that its not just my DD who does this! Also, to see the pictures of the toddlers getting into all those positions... I thought Izzy was the only acrobatic feeder in the world. The positions she gets into sometimes make me laugh so much! I really really wish she'd not fiddle with my other nipple though. It is so uncomfortable. Her other hand always ends up there. no matter what I do. Last evening she was feeing from my right side, lying across my body, moved to the left and managed to lie on her back! god knows how and why it didn't hurt me!!

Anyway, think about it GOODBITS, really consider it. I totally get where you re coming from, but it really saved my sanity.

I'm not sure you can mix and match the two methods though... the Dr really emphasises the timing being the key. It is not a long time, really it isn't... The bit about CC I coudlnt do, was the not picking her up. just patting etc didn't ever stop her crying, she wanted the cuddle. This way, she gets it, she just learns that it is not for a long time... she eventually learned that it was probably not worth making a noise and waking herself up fully, for such a little 'reward'. Of course, you do also have to be sure they are not hungry, dirty etc.... she often poos' in the night now, so I always check on that...

Right, i've gone on far too long! sorry

The thing is, you can't always be with them straight away if they cry can you? When I think about time's i'm in the bath, or, washing up, or doing things that have to get done, if she cries, I can't go immediately to her.

When you are asleep and they wake up and cry, if in another room, especially, you don't register they are crying immediately, it takes a few minutes for you to realise they are crying, get up ad go to them...

I felt just the same as you do, honestly I did, the thought of deliberately leaving her to cry, felt horrible.

My mum pointed out to me, that by being SO chronically tired all the time, was not helping my relationship with my DD at all, She was not getting the best of me etc... it put it into perspective too, when she also suggested I think about the times in the day isobel cries. She even suggested timing it. It was not far off tbh. especially if I was in the bath or had my hands in the washing up .

I've just read the kellymom links. So brilliant to find that its not just my DD who does this! Also, to see the pictures of the toddlers getting into all those positions... I thought Izzy was the only acrobatic feeder in the world. The positions she gets into sometimes make me laugh so much! I really really wish she'd not fiddle with my other nipple though. It is so uncomfortable. Her other hand always ends up there. no matter what I do. Last evening she was feeing from my right side, lying across my body, moved to the left and managed to lie on her back! god knows how and why it didn't hurt me!!

Anyway, think about it GOODBITS, really consider it. I totally get where you re coming from, but it really saved my sanity.

I'm not sure you can mix and match the two methods though... the Dr really emphasises the timing being the key. It is not a long time, really it isn't... The bit about CC I coudlnt do, was the not picking her up. just patting etc didn't ever stop her crying, she wanted the cuddle. This way, she gets it, she just learns that it is not for a long time... she eventually learned that it was probably not worth making a noise and waking herself up fully, for such a little 'reward'. Of course, you do also have to be sure they are not hungry, dirty etc.... she often poos' in the night now, so I always check on that...

Right, i've gone on far too long! sorry

Briefly - 2 is NOT too young to understand sometimes you get milk other times you don't. You can nightwean her right now and she will get it. She may not like it but it will make sense - a few days preparation helps, keep telling her 'we don't have milk at night, only in the daytime'. Then google Dr Jack Newman nightweaning, he has a good plan for cosleepers - of course you can adapt if you want her in her own room. I think it helps if you have a partner who can take over a bit. I know pregnancy will complicate things loads but a few nights might sort this out. I am still bfeeding at 2.5 but haven't fed at night since 1, and that's saved our bfeeding relationship! Hope that helps a bit

Ooooh - rapid return sounds like something I might be able to do. Unfortunately when baby was born ILs came to stay for 5 months(!) and they got him used to being patted/rocked to sleep, and he has never been able to get to sleep without human contact. So that is something else I have to contend with.

Thanks for not ripping into me for the hijack

Does your daughter take milk from a cup during the day? Or does she insist on being nursed at all times? I was lucky in that when I was dropping day feeds Baby GB took milk quite happily from a cup during the day. I thought bed-time milk might be a problem too, but nope that went well too.

A little too well for my liking as I went into the living room after he fell asleep and burst into tears that he was all 'grown up' now! We're never pleased eh?!

I see where you're coming from susie. I'll have a think about all the methods here and give something a go next week.

Thankfully I haven't had to worry about poos in the night for a while as he does his poos in the toilet. I might not be able to get him to sleep all night, but at least I don't have to contend with pooey nappies any more

tHE BIT OF CONTROLLED CRYING oops that I didn't like was the leaving them alone too. So what we did was send in dh with a bottle of water. So Ds still yowling but getting comforted and importantly, not breastfed. (Meanwhile I sat on the sofa and cried )

But each night was less disturbed than the last and within 4 nights he was sleeping through.

No answers bigmouth, but plenty of empathy from me. Thankfully dd was night weaned a long time ago, but daytimes can still be a battleground, esp if we aren't busy.

Hope you find a solution that works for you.