Is there any way to go forwards from here?

[Summermeadowflowers]

DD was a tricky feeder from the very start and I really did try to get support with feeding but things seemed to get worse rather than better and now she just won’t feed at all, she just cries hysterically if I try to breastfeed her.

Part of me feels I should just accept the inevitable of formula feeding but I really really want to breastfeed and I am just wondering if there’s anything I haven’t already thought of that might solve this? She is 5 weeks.

Also, I never managed to get a proper latch so I can't give much advice, but I switched to exclusive pumping early. I totally get how hard it is (I wanted to quit at least 50 times before I got comfortable, and I only have one child), but eventually I managed to get to a routine with it, and it's a feeding choice I'm happy with. Although it was not my ideal choice, I'm happier with it than if switched to formula. I got a lot of help from the website www.exclusivepumping.com and the related facebook group, both have plenty of useful advice to make exclusive pumping easier. Lactation consultants and breastfeeding groups might also give support with exclusive pumping (not all, but I definitely benefited from attending a pumping workshop organised by an IBCLC). If you want tips about exclusive pumping, feel free to message me.

@Springbaby2023 i probably do need in person support but I think the problem is I’ve had it and to be totally honest I think they are a bit stumped! Re skin to skin - it just seems to get her a bit worked up: I’m still pumping, she can smell milk and gets all agitated - she doesn’t just enjoy cuddles - but then if you try to help her onto the breast she gets all upset!

I am partly just letting off steam as it is really frustrating for her as well as me and I’m not in any way intending to sound bad tempered: there is no reason for anybody to feel bad but equally, no babies are being starved in the quest to breastfeed, if I decide to go to only formula then that’s a decision I will reach myself in my own time. Expressing is hell though and I would be so much happier if I reliably knew I could feed her myself. As it is I feel I can barely do anything because I have to keep thinking of expressing. I could buy a hand free pump I suppose but they are so expensive.

I had similar with DS1 and it turned out that he was lactose intolerant. I used some colief drops and that really helped. It was a bit of a faff as you need to put some in a bit of breast milk and give it to the baby a certain amount of time before feeding which is a bit hard with feeding on demand. However I tried it in a bottle of expressed breast milk and that worked better, but at that point DS refused to go back onto the breast so I don't recommend that.

According to this website a baby can get lactose overload if you switch breasts too often.

https://www.babycareadvice.com/blogs/physical-problems/lactose-overload

I'm so sorry you're going through this. My first child would not breastfeed either. He only ever latched on twice and he immediately came off again as if disgusted. I fed him through nipple shields for four months and then I introduced one bottle of formula a day because he didn't seem to be getting enough milk through breastfeeding. I managed to get to nine months of breastfeeding with that one bottle of formula a day and then my milk dried up and he had to go entirely on to formula, although he was well into weaning by then so it wasn't an issue. Breastfeeding is not easy, despite its proven health benefits to both mother and baby.

Ultimately you have to decide what's most important to you. If you want to keep breastfeeding then you will need to decide whether to pay again for extra support or persevere with the nipple shields or switch to expressing. I think lactation consultants vary hugely but if you get a good one then she will probably be able to help. One of my other children had to have a lot of help with latching and the lactation consultant started out by watching an entire feed and that's how she worked out what was going wrong. Other experts had watched him latch on and pronounced his latch fine. She saw that he was latching on okay at first but then losing his latch; he needed to be taught how to stay in position. I'm sure there is a solution out there for you but it's so difficult when you're in the thick of trying to juggle everything. I hope you can get the support that you need.

Thanks. I think the problem is she won’t latch at all now so can’t say where we’re going wrong as we can’t even start - does that make sense?

You're coming across quite angrily here, but I totally get it.

My first baby was a 'breast refuser', I saw FIVE lactation consultants, bought ever nipples shield on the planet, did skin to skin for weeks, he had a tongue tie snipped, he just wouldn't breastfeed. Several of the lactation consultants said that actual total breast refusal is quite rare but it does happen and when it does, there often isn't anything more you can do. I'm not saying that's happening here but a lot of what you say is ringing true. I ended up expressing, which is hell, and moved to formula after a couple of weeks. It was that or back to hospital.

Advice - try to reduce your stress (impossible, I get it), try shields again - get several different ones, my third child would only latch with mam ones after trying about five different types and sizes, but they worked for her. Get the tongue tie reassessed, my son's had been missed several times but it was an NCT consultant who spotted it. Getting it cut made no difference to him but it might for your baby.

You mention a toddler - did you breastfeed them? Just wondering because if you did then this suggests it might be a problem with this baby, rather than your supply etc, so there's no point giving you all the advice about that.

Sorry a couple of months I expressed for, not weeks! I still tried to breastfeed for all that time.

Hi OP

Please don’t feel like you went ‘wrong’ somewhere. Some babies just don’t latch and we never know the reason. My DS never latched, tried everything, including lactation consultant. I ended up expressing for 5 months but I could never get enough milk out so he was on formula from the beginning. It’s totally common for breastfeeding issues to happen.

What did your lactation consultant actually do apart from suggesting cranial osteopathy?

Also what have the infant feeding team done and suggested?

The problem in the UK is a lot of support is so poor that even if you can access it sometimes it is not a lot of use to anyone. This is frustrating and unfair.

But it would help with troubleshooting if you can explain what has already happened and what the support that you've had has consisted of.

I asked the OP about the tongue tie but she hasn’t said. I’d almost put money on a tricky tongue tie. This was exactly what my daughter was like until a second specialist bride said she did in fact have a very subtle but hugely limiting posterior tongue tie.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned (not RTWT) but have you had baby checked checked and checked again for tongue tie? DH has it so I was aware our DD may well do but we had to get 5 or 6 midwives to check before one identified it and we were then referred for the TT snip. Anecdotally it's really under diagnosed and makes feeding so much harder.

Other things we tried which I think helped - getting out to breastfeeding support groups and seeing a cranial osteopath.

@mistermagpie it doesn’t help to be told I’m coming across angrily. I’m not going to apologise for pointing out some posts aren’t helpful and are just about applying a good old boot.

DS never latched either but he was impossible. This one feels as if she could but won’t. I realise it isn’t as simple as that.

Apologies if I’ve missed posts. Dd had a tongue tie, not a bad one but it was snipped anyway on the 14th.

Lactation consultant suggested nipple shields, advised on positioning, checked for tongue tie. Infant feeding team suggested putting her on me skin to skin and letting her find the breast. This didn’t work as she just got furious when she smelled milk and could not get to it.

Oh OP you sound just like me.

And I tell you, I wanted to scream at every single person who said, “Just give formula” or “Just bottle feed.”

I had always planned on breast feeding and that’s what I wanted to do and it broke my heart that I was struggling.

The issues I had all came down to a combination of silent reflux, tongue-tie, tense muscles in his jaw and neck (which cranio fixed) and a dairy allergy.

He had his tongue tie treated at about 9 days of age and as the weeks progressed the other problems all came to light. I can’t tell you how many times I was crying in the GP surgery because not only did I just know in my gut that something was wrong, but also because I so desperately wanted to have a positive breast feeding experience.

It ultimately took me 4 months of difficulties until my baby actually started happily breastfeeding

Regarding the allergy, the first sign of what was that he was getting so distressed when put near the breast, he’d maybe latch and suckle for about 20 seconds and that’s when he’d start screaming….he’d be pushing away from the breast, crying his eyes out and it felt like total rejection. As things worsened he wouldn’t even go near the breast at all and even when I held him in a feeding position he would start screaming before I even put him near my breasts.

From my experience the most damaging thing to breast feeding can be to cause a breast aversion which is triggered when the breasts become a sort of threat to the baby and the more you try and encourage feeding the more the aversion worsens.

In my experience of working with lactation consultants the general advice is to completely stop trying to breast feed the baby for a minimum of 48 hours to completely breaks the cycle and during that time use bottles to give expressed breast milk (using the paced feeding method). I know it isn’t what you want but it only a short term measure to hopefully return to a positive breast feeding relationship.

This process can be quite a complex one so I would definitely advise you do it under the guidance of an IBCLC.

It may also give you a chance to see how your baby responds to bottles….if they are unable to latch to the teat properly and dribble milk or choke on the flow etc it’s likely the baby has an issue with its tongue function. If the baby is still screaming about being fed it may indicate a problem with jaw and neck muscles or it may be reflux related or it may indicate a dairy allergy.

It sounds like you’re stuck in a very
difficult situation and I think you need a lot of support and qualified guidance to help you get to the root of these complex issues and then help you fix things.

I’m really sorry you are going through this, I really do empathise with how shitty you are feeling.

The first 4 months of my baby’s life were consumed by tears and worries over his feeding and I must have paid out about £500 in total for professional support and treatments to enable me to breast feed. It was a really difficult time.

The only advice the HV’s gave was to give formula. Bloody hopeless. For situations like yours you definitely need the help of someone with many qualifications and experience specific to lactation and feeding support.

I really hope you manage to get things sorted and although the journey might be a long one I hope you reach a positive end.

Thank you for understanding I haven’t actually tried to breastfeed her for a while, just because it is so stressful and upsetting for us both. Yesterday thought she was bobbing about and I’d just come out of the shower so I tried … she latched (without shields!) for maybe two seconds then started howling

She was such a settled and content baby to start with but now she barely naps - I mean really, honestly, yesterday she had less than an hours sleep all day, was awake until 10pm then just seemed to collapse in exhaustion. Today looks set to be the same.

I have looked back through the thread and I really am not seeing what I’ve said that is as terrible as all that to be honest. I was a bit short on maybe two posts but I hardly told anyone to fuck off or to stick their head in a gallon of Aptimil or anything and to be honest if anyone wants a row, I don’t want one, I really don’t. It is a bit of a peeve of mine that any thread about breastfeeding has people pushing formula feeding but that’s irritation at society not anyone personally. I do think we should bear in mind a lot of people are very wealthy because of our crap breastfeeding rates.

One piece of advice I was given, which you may have already tried, is to express for about 5 minutes before offering the breast to the baby (or for a shorter period of time if the milk is flowing well) as then the milk is readily available as opposed to the baby initially having to work for it which makes some babies incredibly angry.

I was also advised to use a warm compression across the breasts before expressing/feeding (I used a hot towel) in order to open up the ducts and to then use hand compressions whilst the baby was latched. Both of those suggestions seemed to help a little in terms of milk flow and preventing my baby from getting so frustrated at the breast.

And obviously I don’t know what positions you breast feed in, but it was also suggested to me that I used the koala hold as that position is very similar to their feeding position when they are being given bottles using the paces feeding technique. And also, if there are any issues at play with muscle tightness or reflux, feeding sitting up is generally more comfortable for them.

Have you spoken to the practitioner who performed the TT to discuss the problems you’re still having? Most of them should offer some kind of follow-up and in your case, it may be worth her looking at the wound to make sure it has healed properly.

My son had to have a second TT procedure due to continued difficulties and when he was examined it was obvious the tissues had started reattaching which is why he had started to refuse to feed again and why the pain and upset had returned.

Thanks. I’m undecided about what to do - I think I am hoping one day she’ll just latch on! But she most probably will not.

@Summermeadowflowers tongue ties can be snipped but fuse over again. My my third baby’s did he needed it done again. Might be worth double checking …..

Could you go to a TT specialist and get another check? DD had hers done privately at - few days old, but was still struggling to latch. Then when our NHS appointment came up at 6 weeks they spotted a tiny bit more posterior tongue toe that they cut, and from then on she was fine. The relief was instant.

Tie

I recommend finding a lactation consultant.

@lucywebberfeedingsupport_ibclc on Instagram is brilliant and very supportive. She can help virtually as well.

See the screenshot attached - she posted links to multiple resources.

You don't have to give up on breastfeeding if that's what you really want to do. If you find the right help then you can find the way through 🙌🏻 good luck

I think it’s really unhelpful that when the OP is desperately asking for help with breastfeeding that people are saying “just formula feed”.

OP, I’d also bet that it’s tongue tie of some sort. It’s really hard to diagnose but there are lots of avenues for help.

Where are you located? There are loads of breastfeeding cafes near me which is a drop in clinic staffed by BF experts, they were so helpful to me when I had an issue with feeding.

So I’d get her latch checked again and tongue tie looked at. And also experiment with positions - rugby hold is quite different to the classic one and might help

You're in a really difficult position, OP, don't worry about people criticising how you're coming across, instead focus on you and your baby. All four of mine were difficult to breastfeed in different ways to each other but I was determined to breastfeed them and you sound like that what you really want to do. I'm sure there is a way for you to get your child to latch on, you need as much help as possible. There are so many things you can try, many of which have been mentioned on this thread - don't rule out anything as you just need to find the key that will make everything easier. Good luck to you.

Hey op - can you see if she has tongue tie? Both of my kids did and once they had it snipped latching on was much easier and we were able to breastfeed. Can you go to any la lèche groups or local breastfeeding clinics? Seeing an expert in person might be the help you need. Sending hugs xx I was also hell bent on breastfeeding and really distraught when struggling at the beginning. Either way you end up feeding your baby will be ok, hard to see the wood for the trees now but the first 6 months - year of feeding milk is only a tiny blip in their whole life span of you being their mummy 💛

I’m sorry you’re going through this. Is there a breastfeeding charity in your area?

We have one in ours with a free 24/7 IBCLC who offers 1:1 support so worth looking into.

How are you getting on OP?